In yesterdays post, Sid responded to me with a well written and articulate argument – that the new epic-gear system is good because of the trouble that it alleviates for new players. I quote:
” … I’ll tell you what happened to me: I reached level cap for the first time (lvl 70) at the end of the BC, a month or two before Wrath.
The way progression worked then, was Normals -> Heroics -> Kara -> etc, etc up to Black Temple and Sunwell. You couldn’t “jump” from Tier 4 to Tier 6, you had to do it all in order. Sounds logical and fair right?
Now, going on with my story, When I hit 70 I didn’t have good enough gear for heroics, I had to do normals. Nobody did normals at that time. I had to be carried by my guild through Karazhan for badges but it was hard to get a spot since everybody in the guild wanted to steamroll Kara for “ez-epikz lol”, and my gear level didn’t allow me to PuG it.
So I couldn’t start raiding, because I was “too late”. Imagine if we had the same system now. How many guilds do you see doing Naxx nowadays? …”
I agree that new players who wish to raid need to be geared up. And he does have a valid argument in a lot of ways. But what Sid went through in BC being boosted by his guild, isn’t that what a guild is for? This is a MMORG, right? So it’s supposed to be a multi-player game. If you get boosted by your guild through Naxx you are guarenteed a few drops. And if it coincides with the weekly raid, then they’re in for a big haul of 10 badges as well, (as are you.) Plus they might do the run with just 8 or 9 players for an achivement. There are a lot of incentives already to get players to go back through those runs.
” … People that doesn’t raid has raid-level gear (not the same as “raid gear”). How is that bad for the game or the community? If the reason you kill raid bosses for is loot, then you miss the whole point of raiding: “You don’t raid to get gear, you get gear to raid” the motto of almost every dedicatesd raider.
And I still see people bring up these point of “better gear to differentiate us (the raiders) from the rest”. I feel really sorry for those who need to jerk their e-peen and show “superiority” to others in order to feel acomplished.
It’s no different from the idiot in real life who buys a Ferrari just to get other people’s attetion and show how “successful in life” he is.
“I haz Ferrari lol, Im better than U”
Isn’t that what Gevlon calls a “social”? …”
But the rest of the argument is facetious – this is a gear based game. When I play any game for a long period of time I do it for the pull. The pull here is the gear. The rarer the gear, the more special, the more I want to get it. Not to “wave my e-peen”, but to get satisfaction from the way the game has been set up from the beginning. This was the challenge – to get the rare gear so as to be able to perform well in raids. There has always been a small percentage of the player base from the beginning who wanted this, and Blizzard catered for them. Because these are the players who stay with the game for the long haul. They are the rock-solid base on which the company making the game, in this case Blizzard, can rely on to pay their costs month in, month out. The other players are the socials, those that flit in and out, those that were never video gamers but came in because maybe they saw it on South Park. And both groups were happy. Until the general mass began to complain about the raiding situation. They wanted that gear too but just “didn’t have the time to raid.”
I don’t have the time to raid either. I never have. My absolute maximum number of nights that I can raid a week is two. Sometimes I can stretch it to three. This has been the case for me all the way through WoW. And I have managed to keep up with the gear. It was a challenge, don’t get me wrong, but that’s the whole point.
Not any more. Blizzard has left no challenge that leaves a feeling of satisfaction because they have redisigned their game away from its core beginning. Iron bound protodrake? Please. I have to be honest with you, I don’t even know what that looks like. There are so many mounts now that they’re all beginning to look the same.
The idea of making blues the new purples, of getting this content down without having one epic, this is a challenge. And what’s more, it feels like I am stepping off the epic-band-wagon-merry-go-round that raiding has become. I just hope that they don’t catch on on our realm and jack the price of blues.
December 20, 2009 at 11:56 pm
Heya guys, this topic has fallen into my absolutely-must-reply basket so be prepared for a rant! This is my opinion as a long term player, so take it with a grain of salt. As a sidenote, i/we always and do raid 1~3 nights for maybe 4hrs each, a week (this week was one 3 1/2hr night). I will use “you” in a general sense, not directed at any particular person
“Now, going on with my story, When I hit 70 I didn’t have good enough gear for heroics, I had to do normals. Nobody did normals at that time. I had to be carried by my guild through Karazhan for badges but it was hard to get a spot since everybody in the guild wanted to steamroll Kara for “ez-epikz lol”, and my gear level didn’t allow me to PuG it.”
What? I’m not following this one. As soon as the starter people hit 70, we were running normals (you had to rely on the guild or wait an hour+ for a pug, and raid in quest rewarded/crafted blues)and started karazhan. You needed revered rep to do heroics back then, so no-one was in heroic gear, and we still did it. It was kara v1.0, not the watered down version it became over the next 2 years, and it was hard. Was there a pre-conception because your guild had kara on farm that your gear “wasn’t up to scratch”? If you didn’t get in on any alt runs (surely they weren’t selfish enough to exclude gearing a potential good raider), why didn’t you join another guild? I’m willing to bet, that if you had’ve been in a guild with people around the same equipment levels, you would’ve had a much more enjoyable experience learning and eventually overcoming it. People still had blues going into SSC and TK, and it was never a problem.
“So I couldn’t start raiding, because I was “too late”. Imagine if we had the same system now. How many guilds do you see doing Naxx nowadays? …””
Too late? Too late for just your guild, or for the other 1,000 players at the same level of playing on your server? And people still do naxx, alt runs, pugs, badge runs, new players and so forth, all 90% successful, if you wipe, chalk it down to experience, bfd.
The thing that really pisses me off, is people who expect to walk straight into the new content because “I pay for this game so i deserve everything on offer” Why? Because i read wow.com/mmochampion/tankspot/wowwiki and i can look at atlasloot and that stuff is really neat and looks so cool i must have it. I see it even with people (friends of friends sorta thing) in my guild. Levelled with their 3x experience, get to 80 and expect because they know someone to get in each and every raid. Sure, they might have all the badge gear under the sun, but in a raid situation they are mediocre at best. Then the drama starts because they can’t understand that all the best gear in the world doesn’t make them a good player, and most people will always blame their gear instead of their own playstyle, ambition vs ability.
What it comes down to, is a preconceived notion that because “everyone else” is geared in the new shiny stuff, that you are immediately behind. There is enough badge shit and ICCheroic gear in game at the moment to bypass any raid until ToCr. Gear is a means to an end, shouldn’t be handed to you on a silver platter. I don’t care about being the best geared player around, and i accept the fact that because i don’t raid 25mans for 6nights a week @ 6hrs a time, i never will be.
You have to work for it, granted not like vanilla, but you still have to do a minimum. The badge gear has made everything prior to the latest raid 90% obsolete, so instead of whinging, be grateful blizzard has made your grind to the top alot easier. I give no sympathy for the people who endlessly QQ about not having the latest and best gear, knowing full well they only have a few hours a night to play. Instead of farming heroics for badges or signing for a pug raid they are equipped for as soon as they log on, they’ll sit in a main city checking the AH whining about how hard done by they are. If your guild raids, they will have a plan of whats happening, either the calendar or whatever else, so you either should know what is going on at any particular night, or make it your business to know what is going on. If you don’t get in, go work your butt off to prove you are a must-have member of the team.
Few things that show you really mean business: Spend almost all your time on your main. Log on not to raid, but just to play the class you “love” playing. Have everything ready to go at an instant notice. Never ever go into a raid knowing you have to leave in x hours. Nothing worse than wiping to a new boss for two hours then get a “oh guys i gtg” shows you don’t have the dedication to stick it out when its getting harder even if the reason is true, letting down and effectively halting the other 9 or 24 people’s progress. Usually a RL will say “we’ll try for 3hrs then call it” idea, so gets a heads-up beforehand.
If you don’t like the current state of the game, its easy. Stop playing. End of Story.
I’ll get back here with a link to an article of a US guild who did the entire 10man ulduar in blues a few months back, no crafted epics, no enchants that required abyss crystals and no epic gems, all gear that you could get relatively easy and/or cheap when you hit 80. I think they had a few deaths at YS, but it was done.
I wish i could be a part of this blue-only progression team, and provided the core of the guild is as determined as i believe they are, they will succeed.
I’ve prepared the flame suit, so fire away!
December 21, 2009 at 3:08 am
Disregard my link for ulduar, that was on greedy goblin, i suck i know
December 21, 2009 at 10:39 pm
I remember well a lot of things, i remember how i feel when i get my 1st blue, yeee not purple but blue… and then i remember when i hit level 60 and i do half of ZG with a lot of level 70 and some and how they fail a lot but i was happy that was my 1st raid…
i remember my 1st kara, (is my favourite place in BC) and how i cry i really cry i a lot, cause i play as moonkin and kara have no leather to moonkin, and ppl dont though is fair let a moonkin get cloth… i guess the 1st good leather that i saw was of SSC or BT, but how be there if i was ungeared….
so i change of guild start do some raids, not only kara, (my 1st guild was a kara guild)
now after glevon i know that gear is not so importatnt… but at that time i dont knew what i know today
but even today gear is important of anykind. let me explain…
if u r in a world of blind ppl and that ppl never know what is “to SEE” u can say to they: “i can see follow me”. And they dont will listen u, cause they cant figure what to see means…
at same way u can say: “i dont have a good gear but pick me, i will do a good damage or heal to raid mr pug”. And they will say NO, cause if they cant do a good damage in blue, they believe that nobody can
last week a guild mate was kicked by a pug of HoR because his have low life (less than 22k) a detail that that guy in question was the healer…
on my side i am tired to try explain ppl (some of my guild mates too) how ask to link achievement and GS does not prove that one is a good player…
i hope that the ungeared project works a lot, will be a huge satisfaction link on my guild forum the good news about the crazy goblin and his fellows that cleaned all WoLK full blue
ps. sorry about my pretty bad english
December 22, 2009 at 10:45 pm
Well said!
“if u r in a world of blind ppl and that ppl never know what is “to SEE” u can say to they: “i can see follow me”. And they dont will listen u, cause they cant figure what to see means…”
“at same way u can say: “i dont have a good gear but pick me, i will do a good damage or heal to raid mr pug”. And they will say NO, cause if they cant do a good damage in blue, they believe that nobody can”
I believe you have hit the nail on the head!
December 22, 2009 at 9:54 am
I hope that the blue project will be a success as well. If it only does one thing it will bring back the sense of adventure and accomplishment in the game that I feel has been lost with the watering down of raids and raiding.