I was listening to the Twisted Nether podcast episode with Tristan from the Elitest podcast, today. Okay, that’s not entirely true, let me back up a bit. I saw this post on wow.com today and it got me thinking about that episode from Twisted Nether, so I went back to listen to it again. That link from wow.com if you haven’t clicked on it already, (due to the fact that you’re afraid I’m going to try and install a keylogger on your computer), is about a group of sponsored gamers called The Frag Dolls. This is an all female gaming team which, and I will quote the article here;
“… This all-business gamer has helped create and lead the a multi-platform clan of more than 300 gun-toting women who compete across five FPS (First Person Shooter) games in 10 separate divisions …”
(Nice editing there, wow.com.)
So good luck to them, right? Empowerment to women and all that. It’s really good that they can do that, blah blah blah. But it immediately made me think of the podcast interviewing Tristan. You see, Tristan belongs to a guild called, ‘No Chicks Allowed’. So good luck to them too, right? It’s really good that they can do that too, right?
Nope. Listen to the episode, (around the 1 hour 15 minute mark), and he is clearly uncomfortable with the fact that he belongs to such a group. He feels that he must explain himself and the rationale is that in a mixed raiding guild, women get treated badly by immature men, apparently. So this is not due to boys not wanting to play with girls, it’s due to the fact that boys cannot be trusted to play with girls, that’s the real reason, so please understand and be nice to us we’re not bad really truly. He then gets asked if the reason that they don’t allow women is because they’re a bunch of ‘sexist trolls’. His reponse is an uncomfortable ramble comparing their guild with the prison system because you can’t put men and women together in prisons, (which I thought had to do with the sex thing which as far as I know isn’t possible over Vent but if it is, for the love of god somebody please let me know), and thus you can’t put men and women togther in raid teams. Obviously this is a pretty stupid analogy, but what can you expect from such a stupid question? According to Tristan, women can get victimised by the male majority in raiding guilds. I don’t know about that. I know that a lot of women that I have played with have been great. A lot of them have also been stupid fucking drama queens, rumor-mongers, trouble stirrers and in two instances guilds have broken up directly because of a female gamer causing problems. Does that mean that I label all women as problem-gamers? Nope, but I am aware that it can happen and I understand their reasoning behind having an all male guild. I just wish that they had the nads to stand up and say, we don’t want to play with girls and if you don’t like it just go and fuck yourselves. But they don’t. Instead they infer that men are intrinscially bad and women are intrinsically good so it’s better for women if the men just hide by themselves in a corner.
Because if women do this, if they make an all female guild or as in the case above an all female gaming team, (300 members don’t forget), it’s great and empowering and beautiful and you had better not fucking say anything negative about it. But if men do the same thing, well, watch the shit hit the fan. The really interesting thing is that a guild is a private entity. Your choices in your guild do not effect anyone outside the guild, (unless you want to be incredibly pathetic and say that in this case, as a woman, seeing the guild name ‘No Chicks Allowed’ makes you feel disempowered and it hurts your self esteem). But the all girl Frag team is actually sponsored by a company. They see a marketing value in an all female association. Not only are they not made to defend themselves, but they can get publicly sponsored for effectively doing the same thing as No Chicks Allowed. Whereas members of that all male guild are made to constantly defend their choice, (as Tristan says on the podcast, a thread about their guild will come up on the Blizzard forums every few weeks, and it is inevitably an attack).
Would an all male team get sponsorship for the fact that they are male? I doubt it. Unless maybe they put on a blonde wig and try and look hawt in a tight T-shirt.
February 19, 2010 at 2:45 pm
I don’t know if you have seen the female blogger response to that Wow.com interview but frankly most of us were rather annoyed with Frag Doll Valkyrie as well.
I mean she has a job where she is given the opportunity to promote and play games all day long so she is going to be somewhat limited in how free she is to speak. The thing that irritated US the most was she seemed to be capitalizing on the two things that we as female gamers find the most annoying, one that her GENDER some how effects how anyone who really MATTERS is going to perceive her ability to play and two she failed to acknowledge that she was being used as SEX APPEAL in her job. There is nothing wrong with that, models do it all the time, but it is NOT just her abilities that landed her that dream job.
Lets face it until recently woman just didn’t see the VALUE in computer games and software companies didn’t know how to promote them to get our attention. The vast majority who DID get interested came to it via MALE significant others (brothers, boyfriends, husbands, even fathers)then took them up as our own. They fact we may or may not have specific body parts does not effect our abilities to play.
If a group wants to have a guild where they can just hang out and feel they can ONLY do that comfortably with one gender that is THEIR choice. Heck, the thing with guilds is you can chose or not chose to join them at will. But be honest about it, stop trying to make it palatable to those who are going to get offended no matter WHAT you do because they chose to live their lives being offended. When you go out for a few beers with “the guys” you want to do it with “the guys” or “the girls” so you can whine and complain about the other gender in your life…hard to do if they are there. For some their “game time” is their “whine time”.
*end of female rant*
February 19, 2010 at 3:14 pm
I haven’t seen any blog posts about it, (if you have I’d appreciate some links if you could), and I managed to wade through the first two pages of comments on that article on wow.com before I gave up in disgust at the human race. I can understand why you can be this upset with her, it reminds me of the nascar driver, Danica Patrick, who continually demands to be taken seriously as a driver, not for her gender, whilst simultaneously shooting semi-nude sexy calanders.
The ironic thing is that this frag doll Valkyrie isn’t even good looking.
February 19, 2010 at 5:14 pm
I think Tryssta at The Snobby Blood Elf has the best post on it.
http://snobbybelf.wordpress.com/2010/02/18/anything-you-can-do-i-can-do-better/
And your comment on her looks? Yeah I had to snort when she got REALLY defensive about the interviewer asking if she might be getting a little to “old” for what she does anymore. (Translation: losing that sex appeal) I could imagine her spitting kittens.
February 19, 2010 at 11:32 pm
From a business point of view, it makes sense to have a female-only sponsored team. Women consist of, what, half of the population? That’s a huge untapped market. So get a bunch of girls together who play well and that other women can relate to. Give them a lot of publicity and you’ll expand your market. I think of it along the same lines of scholarships given to women studying in male dominated fields.
As for single gendered guilds, I have no problems with them whatsoever. It makes sense to want to play with the guys or play with the girls. While I love the guys in my guild, I have to hold back a lot on “girly” behavior. So I completely understand people who choose to only play with their gender.
What bothers me are the stupid excuses single-gendered guilds use. “We want to avoid drama”, “we can’t behave properly in front of the other gender”, “our gender has better players” /rolleyes. This is the 21rst century people! Wake up!
February 23, 2010 at 4:51 pm
[...] Noisy Rogue, Theevris, Pugnacious Priest, and Klepsacovic in the last couple of months have all weighed in on single-gender guilds – all interesting reads (including comments). [...]
February 24, 2010 at 4:45 am
Re:
“They fact we may or may not have specific body parts does not effect our abilities to play.”
Lucky for the girls – occasionally during Boss fights my exceptionally large member accidentally lands on my keyboard , causing me to spam party chat with gibberish and miss-key my Grid + Clique UI…
Unfortunately (for the tank) by the time I manhandle (and I use the word deliberately) the beast back into position, and stop laughing, they are usually a stain on the floor… but a judicious Barkskin and Tranq usually saves the day if the DPS are up to the task.
Besides that, I blame the rogues when I can. I’m sure you’ve had this problem too eh Ads?
Tak
P.S. Everybody else plays WoW naked, don’t they? Nothing makes a fireball feel more real…
March 2, 2010 at 3:32 am
I blogged about the same interview – http://pugnaciouspriest.com/2010/02/02/a-single-gender-guild/ – it doesn’t really cover the argument of a girls only guild. It’s mentioned, but I was more aiming at the reasoninig behind the gender divide. It’s hard to comment on something like that – and not be feministic in one breath – yet ask for equality with the other.
I want to be a gamer. Not a female that games, Women are a rising number in gaming. We are still a minority though. As some of your comments say there is a marketing benifit to girls gameing teams, but sometimes it seems to be done for the wrong reasons. Adam said that she wasn’t even good looking, thats not supposed to be important. Its not meant to be about only hot chicks that play it’s meant to be about encouraging other girls to game – make it more ‘socially acceptable’ not create new barbie doll type sterotypes for little girls to admire. The games industry has also been offering a lot more Women’s game designer scholarships to get more women in the industry. Thats sexist – but it’s aimed at filling in a gap – rather then to create a new divide. It is all rather hypercrital though – but no matter the sport – the activity – when there is one gender in such clear majority – the more it stays a majority the less likely the minority has a voice.
March 2, 2010 at 7:48 am
In the case of video gaming the gender issue is a very interesting subject. It’s interesting because of the historical boundaries. I got my first computer in 1986 when I was 15. I can tell you without reservation that you did not tell any girls at your school that you played computer games. If you did you would literally become a social outcast with the opposite sex. And for nerdy boys, of whom I befriended a good many, video games were their respite and escape from this social outside world that would not accept them.
And this has continued to be the case until very recently. Only with the explosion of Facebook and Myspace did the internet become a mainstream acceptance. I live in Italy and I noticed the immediate change just two years ago.
With this being the industries background I can understand the need to create employment roles for women in the industry. I can also see the need to encourage girls to game. But I find it bewildering when a group of males who wish to game alone and continue to use their long term hobby as an escape from the world and are ridiculed and attacked for it.
May 19, 2010 at 7:38 pm
[...] Noisy Rogue, That spelling-taskmaster at High Latency Life, Pugnacious Priest, and Klepsacovic in the last couple of months have all weighed in on single-gender guilds – all interesting reads (including comments). « Shared topic: Wow Outside Azeroth Young’uns in the guild. But not on my lawn. » [...]