This is a guest post from Gordon at We Fly Spitfires. A few weeks ago he asked his fellow bloggers if any of us would like him to guest post. I said sure! So here it is, and my thanks to Gordon, firstly for his offer and secondly for coming through with it. My apologies to my devout readers who will notice that we are missing the word, ‘fuck’. (See what I did there?)
“Phfft, bleh, ha!”. I used to make those sounds, scoffing at players who would whip out their damage meter charts at the end of the every encounter or boss kill. It reminded me off my (infrequent) times at the local gym, trying not to stare at the muscled meat bags who flexed and puffed towards each other like vain peacocks. I wasn’t one of them, I thought, I wasn’t a shallow gamer only interested in silly numbers on a chart. I valued the person behind the class, the player and their personality. I was better than those elitist maths morons and didn’t care about numbers or statistics.
And then one day, for no apparent reason I can recall, I installed Recount.
It started innocently enough out of simple curiosity – I was leveling my Mage alt and wanted to see what sort of damage he did in groups. That was all. I didn’t want to compare myself to others or feel more superior. But I did. After seeing my name at the top of a table of five other players, I was filled with a surprising sense of self-satisfaction. 35% of the entire damage dealt during that dungeon was mine.
It soon became a private game I played with myself. After every battle in a Dungeon Finder group I’d check the Recount chart to see what percentage of the entire group’s damage I’d done. Then one day a friend I was playing with asked me what percentage of the damage he’d done so, to oblige him, I published the results in party chat.. And then I published the results again after the next fight and then again and again. Soon it had became habitual and I did it constantly, regardless of who I was with.
And it didn’t just end there. I didn’t just publish the results and let them be, I used them to determine the “skill” and “worth” of the players I was with. Why was the Warlock doing so little damage? Why wasn’t the Rogue doing enough? I became annoyed when I thought players were slacking off or not doing enough damage. Soon I was judging everyone that I grouped with like some sort of sanctimonious overlord. It was wrong.
I can’t say what exactly lead to this revelation but one day I just realised that out of every group I’d had through the Dungeon Finder, we’d actually never failed to complete a dungeon. It hadn’t mattered I did lots of AE damage on big pulls or if someone hadn’t done what I had considered enough damage. We still finished the dungeon, we still got our rewards and we still had fun. Or rather everyone else had fun, I was too busy watching DPS charts and trying to judge my fellow players. It was shallow and superficial. It was ridiculous.
So I uninstalled Recount and never looked back. My brief stint as a damage meter mad man was enough to make me realise that it corrupts our sense of fun and camaraderie. I know it’s an old cliche about “it’s the taking part that matters” but it’s absolutely true. World of Warcraft is a hobby to me, a bit of fun and relaxation, not a chore or a job or a maths quiz. And the simple fact is that the game is actually flexible enough (in most situations, especially leveling up) to be able to accommodate a large degree of, well, slack. You don’t need to be the perfect player in the perfect party with the perfect gear to be able to succeed so don’t be fooled into thinking you do.
Now I don’t use Recount and I don’t care about damage meters and I’m back to having fun. Sometimes, when playing my Mage, I even take a break during my DPS rotating to take a moment to chat to my fellow players. It’s surprisingly good fun.
-Gordon
April 26, 2010 at 9:30 am
The worst kind of anti smoker is the reformed smoker
I use recount but the one figure I look at more than dps, “activity”. I have no idea how this figure is calculated but I use it as a guide to slacking, which is probably just as bad as looking at dps.
Please can you start “Recounts Anonymous” ?
“Hi, I’m Chewy and I’m a… recountaholic”
*applause*
April 26, 2010 at 9:55 am
“The worst kind of anti smoker is the reformed smoker”
LOL yep!
April 26, 2010 at 9:57 am
As DPS, I am brought in to do a JOB, and do it the best I can.
If I am not INTERESTED in doing a damn good job, I should remove myself and make room for someone who is.
It’s called putting the raid above your own interests. If you prefer to ignore Recount/Skada numbers and settle for “the boss died, who cares if the other rogue did 13K and I did 5K?”, that’s fine.
Just don’t expect to stay. If you insist on placing yourself above the group, don’t join one.
April 26, 2010 at 6:00 pm
Judging and pushing yourself forward is all very well and commendable but when other people start doing it for you then it’s not very fun.
However, it does depend on each person and what they want. A casual player who puts out average DPS is going to be annoyed by someone telling them they’re not doing enough just because of a figure on a graph. More serious players would take it as a challenge.
April 26, 2010 at 10:01 am
Hmm good post.
I hate the recount party spammers however recount itself as a tool is one of the most valuable in my opinion. More so for Raid Leaders to analyse but also for the individual to have a look at their damage output and anything which may need to be tweaked/ looked at rotation wise.
April 26, 2010 at 10:29 am
Would the dungeon be completed and everyone had fun if the tank and the healer did the job the same level as the low DPS?
Would it be completed in 3 hours if every DPS would do the same?
If yes, what stops someone from being on autofollow?
April 26, 2010 at 11:37 am
Was the way you were acting Recount’s fault? Or were you just being an asshole with blaming Recount being a handy scapegoat?
Recount and any meter is merely a tool. It doesn’t corrupt our sense of fun, we do. Blaming an addon, be it Recount or Gearscore, for our asshattery is merely just trying to wriggle out of our personal responsibility.
April 26, 2010 at 6:12 pm
I think it was a little of both
It’s an interesting point though and it ends up being quite philosophical and I suppose even political. Like if we know something is wrong or dangerous, should we allow people to have access to it? That’s the whole argument against drugs and guns etc… totally off topic now though
April 26, 2010 at 3:05 pm
Ah, but 5 man dungeons are currently not challenging at all. The same approach of course is not appropriate in a highly tuned heroic raid where if you slack off then you die.
When I killed Prof Putricide in 10 man our offtank died. Since a tank death heals the Prof for a massive amount, a tank death means a wipe. In our case, the tank died at almost exactly the same moment as the boss – ie the difference in time was less than the tank’s server lag (about 0.1 seconds). If we had taken more than 0.1 seconds longer to kill the boss, then we would not have got the kill. Sometimes you just can’t slack at all.
April 26, 2010 at 6:17 pm
I think that’s the perfect scenario actually… forcing competency and equal responsibility through the game mechanics. It should be the case that if too many people slack to much, the entire group wipes. I don’t think we should need 3rd party add-ons to tell us.
April 27, 2010 at 12:27 am
Then I *think* we agree that the place for recount is in cutting edge content, however alluring the metagame of “winning the AoE fest in zerg content” might appear!
April 26, 2010 at 3:46 pm
Gevlon has a point on this one.
To put it into perspective I was doing a random heroic as my DK tank and got Heroic Strath. On about the 6th pack I notice that the hunter is barely doing anything and most of his stuff is auto attacks (yay recount for breakdown) and the other 2 dps are haphazardly just tossing out ae to barely get the trash down. I figure its just going to be another run where I carry the group through it doing 50% group damage. The hunter then offhand mentions that he is reading websites while doing this dungeon. This actually set me off since he was as geared as I was and doing half my damage with me tanking. This leads into a big tirade from me stating that if I put in as much effort as the dps in that group that we would barely get through the dungeon. Hunter decides to inform me that his paladin tank friend does pretty much put in no effort and they get through things fine.
This lead to tossing said hunter on autofollow for a couple pulls and just dropping Death and Decay and going afk for a bit. Needless to say the hunter started to shape up after he started getting punched in the face by a few mobs and the run went fairly smoothly after that since the dps decided that I wasn’t going to let them coast through that dungeon. And no I didn’t go get one of them the drake that dungeon even though we had time at the end to get it.
Of course I wouldn’t have noticed all of the group pretty much slacking without recount. Its not because of the damage function on that mod, but it is because of the Activity function of that mod. I want to group with slackers as much as people like to work with people who pawn off all their work onto them at the work place. If you look at it this way you will stop tolerating people slacking off. I play for fun and its not fun to carry idiots through places cause they just want free badges. You can only kick so many people per dungeon.
April 26, 2010 at 6:20 pm
As I replied to Everblue, I actually think a better outcome would be if groups just plain wiped and failed if not enough people pulled their weight. That way we wouldn’t need to rely on add-ons like Recount to tell us how well people are performing.
I guess the issue is that maybe WoW is just too flexible for slackers?
May 3, 2010 at 6:03 pm
So recount can cure a disease (slacking) before it wipes the group, yet you would prefer to have the group wipe, which in a pug, means way more blame and meanness gets slung around that just “hey man are you awake your dps is low.”
Also, there is hardly any in game feedback for DPSers. Tanks can see if they lose agro, healers can see if someone dies. If a group wipes on Festergut before the enrage, unless someone has recount, you will not be able to tell the difference between the hunter in the best 251 gear he can find, who is eeking out 8.5k dps, and a lazy rogue in full 264, who’s doing 4k.
So the hunter might feel like a failure when he shouldn’t, and hte rogue might say “it’s the group that’s messed up, not me.”
Recount provides information for you to use, if you become an asshole with it, that’s your problem, not the addons.
(note: with skada it’s just as easy yto see people’s dps and healing and interrupts etc, but harder to report it, one reason I like it better than recount.)
April 26, 2010 at 4:08 pm
I find Recount is a very useful tool. I have it running on my hunter all the time – not so I can see how much better I am than anyone else (I never, ever post damage meters), but because I like to know how I’m performing. If my damage is lower than normal, I know I need to change something.
April 26, 2010 at 7:23 pm
I think there are two things here: 1) running recount and paying attention to what it says, 2) spamming the results. The trouble comes when a player cannot do the former without also doing the latter.
Recount is a very useful tool, as you say, for getting feedback on how you are performing or, as others have said, in indentifying slackers who just aren’t trying.
Announcing the results in party chat (or worse, guild chat) is just obnoxious. I think it’s pretty safe to assume that anybody who wants to know how they’re doing has recount. If your friend asks, you can whisper the results just as easily as spamming them.
April 26, 2010 at 10:25 pm
The solution would seem to be, turn off the ability to announce the results to anyone else. This way it becomes a tool for personal development rather than epeen.
April 27, 2010 at 7:26 am
I think Chewy might be on to something here, seeing as none of us can be trusted to announce results in a responsible and adult fashion …
April 28, 2010 at 8:33 pm
LOL, yep!
April 29, 2010 at 5:17 am
Even then, though, the meter becomes so all-inclusive that the player’s personality can be affected. If players care more about the numbers they do, then they miss out on actually performing their jobs as utility.
This can apply to healers, too. I don’t like healers who concentrate on healing numbers. I mean, a Paladin can spam Holy Light all day long and beat my Disc Priest by an exponential margin. But if that Paladin never blesses, cleanses, or judges, that Paladin is gaining nothing and his or her personal development is stunted because no one ever had the opportunity to train them in correct assessment methods.
April 26, 2010 at 11:16 pm
[...] Does the damage meter really turn us into elitists? Check this post out at the Noisy rogue! [...]
April 28, 2010 at 10:14 pm
[...] can read my guest post about damage meters over on the Noisy Rogue here and, whilst you’re at it, have a poke round the site. Adam’s got some great articles up [...]
April 28, 2010 at 10:52 pm
Had a 5-man H-ToC pug recently where one guy kept bitching about how one person weren’t pulling they’s weight. He were spamming the dps numbers into party chat after each pull, bitching about the slacker, the whole 9 yards. I finally hadda point to ta the moron that he was looking at the healer.
Obsessing about Recount just makes ya stupids.
May 4, 2010 at 4:24 pm
Class and GearScore also come into play, because a fresh 80 with a 1.5K GS will just get creamed by a Raid-equipped 5K+ GS character. You simply cannot look at a DPS meter and say “I’m #1, you suck”, because unless you’re comparing the same classes with similar iLevel attacking the same target, there’s just too many variables to consider.
April 28, 2010 at 11:58 pm
The problem isn’t recount. Recount is a very useful tool to help figure out why a group wiped, and how to fix it.
The problem is noobs who think that damage meters are the most important metric of their performance.
May 3, 2010 at 9:54 am
[...] PDRTJS_settings_429510_post_3690 = { "id" : "429510", "unique_id" : "wp-post-3690", "title" : "3+reasons+why+we+need+damage+meters", "item_id" : "_post_3690", "permalink" : "http%3A%2F%2Fspinksville.wordpress.com%2F2010%2F05%2F03%2F3-reasons-why-we-need-damage-meters%2F" } Gordon from We Love Spitfires has been writing some cracking guest posts recently, such as this rant about the lure of the damage meter at The Noisy Rogue. [...]
May 3, 2010 at 10:27 pm
A damage meter combined with a Gearscore Add-On is very useful for determining who’s pulling their weight and who could be doing a lot better.
A Damage Meter and the Test Dummies is also useful for determining which two of your three Trinkets will maximize your DPS.
DPS logs in Party Chat when nobody asked for one are nothing but ePeen, especially when the poster is #1.