I was listening to the latest episode of the Warcast Lounge podcast, (I’ll review them when they have a few more episodes under their belt), when I heard something that made me choke on my XO cognac in a somewhat undignified manner. If you wish to hear it for yourself it’s towards the end of the podcast around the final 15 minute mark. They are talking about rolling on loot in the new 5 mans. I’m going to have to summerise what Chris, who is one of the two hosts, was talking about.
He is a DPS druid but is a tank on his off spec. He was queuing as a tank so he could avoid the long queues but then rolling need on DPS gear because that is his main spec. His justification is that if tanks and healers like him weren’t queuing in those specs then the queues would be even longer.
I kind of find this attitude a little fucking unbelievable. In essence he is saying that we should be thankful that he is rolling need on DPS gear while he queued as a tank because if it weren’t for players like him then we would have to wait even longer. Well, I don’t know about you other DPS out there, but I’ll take a longer queue with no healers and tanks needing on DPS gear than a “shorter” queue, (which is still 40 minutes long), and watching the one DPS drop go to the tank.
Apparently he doesn’t want to have to put up with a long queue as a DPS player, but he’s perfectly happy to take DPS items away from other DPS players who did have to wait for 40 minutes. If you queue in a certain role then you should only be able to roll need on items associated with that role, (and to be fair, the other host, Ryan, said exactly that). If you aren’t prepared to wait 40 minutes then by all means jump in as a tank. But don’t expect the DPS who did wait, (and who don’t have a choice to queue as a tank or healer), to then be happy when you roll need on DPS drops.
I find this attitude to be the height of doucebaggery. Yeah I’m going to roll need on your DPS drop, but hey; you didn’t have to wait as long in the queue because of me! You should be grateful, pal!
I don’t fucking think so.
The Noisy Rogue 
December 21, 2010 at 11:43 am
In the real world isn’t that called “obtaining goods under false pretenses” and is rightfully illegal in most developed countries ?
Of course this isn’t the real world and so it could be argued that the same rules don’t apply. Murder, a primary function in the game and also illegal in the real world, is actively encouraged in Azeroth.
But nevertheless this sort of behaviour is still cheating in my book.
December 21, 2010 at 11:49 am
It may just be me who are ignorant of feral druid and rogue itemization but aren’t they using the same gear? (except rings, trinkets and necklaces)
This particular feral Druid’s justification smells very self-righteous. When something has to be justified you ought to have several participants to agree on it or it’s no different from a thief. I don’t believe Mr. and Mrs. Rogue/Cat sees this as justified.
If I ever would roll need on dps gear while tanking on my warrior, I always make sure that other plate wearers either don’t need it or isn’t present.
December 21, 2010 at 12:57 pm
His excuse is bad, but he does not need excuse. Blizzard allowed him to roll need and no official rule says he shall not. If you are not happy about him rolling need, you can try to votekick him or leave the group and hope for a plate tank next time.
By the way he is PARTIALLY correct: most of the dungeon loot is not boss drop, but reputation and justice/valor points. What is better: running 2 dungeons with a ninja tank, getting 2x more rep and points, or waiting 2 hours in the queue, and run just one dungeon where the tank doesn’t ninja?
December 21, 2010 at 7:29 pm
I have to agree 100% with Gevlon. If the need button is available to you use it. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve rolled need on an epic staff just to cover my repair bill from faildps not beating enrage timers or standing in the bad.
December 21, 2010 at 1:05 pm
You ever see a rogue roll against a hunter for a bow? I have. I watched a mm hunter beat a rogue for a piece of icc leather stacked with arm pen and I joined the rogue in going “oi! noooo!” I once had a pug nearly dissolve on em when a fury warrior rolled on zods long bow and I gave it to a hunter instead. My grounds? warriors and rogues can only roll offspec on bows. Rogues are the only guys who get mainspec roll on agilty daggers. etc etc. Caster dps do not get to roll on spirit cloth. I even have this macro’d to a “loot rules are…”
it doesnt stop the complaints, but it did mean loot went to where it should. I just wish Blizz would fix the need before greed rules: a warr tank rolled on every piece of cloth gear the other day to prove the point. It was a guild run, he gave the cloth to the casters, but we all got his point loud and clear.
December 21, 2010 at 2:34 pm
Hybrid FTW.
And it’s exactly the reason I don’t play pure classes anymore.
***
Can’t you just pay a guildie to Queue as a tank, then they drop? Does that still leave you at the front of the dungeon queue? Yeah I know it’s off point, I’m rambling.
***
Nothing is more annoying then watching someone else roll on a dagger drop when your Muti. Great spec, sucks to gear. Not only do you have to wait for a specific weapon type to drop, you have to fight off the Hunters, Shammy, and other Rogues who want it.
***
Happy Holidays Adam.
December 21, 2010 at 6:17 pm
Ridiculous. Sure, it’s frustrating to lose a roll on a piece of gear that you feel you need, but there’s no incentive to cede things to people in a pug. If you can use it, roll on it.
Far more often, you get DPS rolling on heal and tank gear because they will wipe the group if they go as a healer/tank in questing greens. If someone rolls on something to just vend it, that’s one thing. But alternative spec rolls are just as legitimate as you rolling on a side-grade that’s better for your other DPS spec.
December 21, 2010 at 7:42 pm
The real deal when presented with a Need option on BOP/BOE gear. The game is giving you a ‘hint’ in letting you know, ‘hey dummy, here is an item that could benefit your chosen class’ if you’ve fabricated some reason why you should forgo a random drop for the benefit of a random pug member than you need to get out of the house more often. You’re either in it to win it, or you’re just paying a subscription to a chat room.
December 22, 2010 at 12:45 am
You make a very good point but what is “winning” in a virtual game ? Collecting more pixels than anyone else ?
Personally the win is in beating a virtual challenge with a group of intelligent people (the ones in front of the screen) and that includes a mutual respect. Simply taking like the seagulls in “Finding Nemo” is for the birds.
December 22, 2010 at 5:35 pm
Yes, the real reward is completing challenges with guild members/peers. I was referring to my attitude in pugs that simply facepull with no CC, stand in the bad, make my job as a healer near impossible. In groups where I find I am simply one of the good players who stays focused and gets the job done, I by all means greed/pass as appreciation for GoodGame.
December 21, 2010 at 8:50 pm
I am a feral tank so I already have the rogues QQin over the gear I need. People should be respecting the “unwritten rules” of instancing. Roll for your role in the party and ask before you roll on something you are not performing in the current party.
December 21, 2010 at 11:13 pm
I equate this to cutting in line. Hey if no one else needs it by all means take the item, but if DPS has been waiting 40 minutes to get the dps gear let them have.
Height of douchebaggery without a doubt. I would write that Druids name down on a list, go to his server, and kick him in the cat balls.
December 21, 2010 at 11:13 pm
Hey folks,
This is Chris, the host of the Warcraft Lounge Adam alluded to with his post. I wanted to add to the discussion here and clear up my position a bit.
The first comment I have is that I obviously don’t expect DPS to be “thankful” I took their gear. Anytime you lose a roll on an item you want, you are going to be disappointed. There was a thread on MMO Champion about this subject that was locked a couple days ago. From reading that thread there was a distinct divide: dps only players vehemently oppose tanks and healers rolling on dps gear while duel spec hybrid classes approve.
Second, this is a two way street. As I said in that same podcast a DPS DK rolled on an agility based polearm that a) wasn’t appropriate for his class and b) for his tanking offspec. I have seen dps needing on tanking gear and taking it from tanks or healers. Not only that, but as a mut rogue have you ever rolled need on a fist weapon for your combat offspec and take that item from an enhance shammy? What about rolling on armor pen leather as a mut rogue during Wrath so you had it for your combat spec. My point is that almost everyone in game is guilty of this at some point or another.
However, I am not giving tanks and healers carte blanche to roll on dps gear. I am fine with rolling on it on my feral because DPS is my main spec…that is what I do progression raiding as. However, I have 4 other tanks, 3 of them are main spec tank. I was on my DK in Forge of Souls and ended up rolling need on the armor pen trinket and won it over a warrior. I left the group and immediately realized what a douchebag move it was. Luckily, the warrior was on my server and I whispered him and gave him the trinket. I encourage main spec healers and tanks to not take gear over dps if you don’t actually raid as that at all. Make sure no one in the group needs it before rolling.
Now Adam, you said you would “take a longer queue with no healers and tanks needing on DPS gear than a “shorter” queue, (which is still 40 minutes long), and watching the one DPS drop go to the tank.” Honestly, take a step back and think whether you really mean that.
Realize that the typical 25 man guild has 2 main spec tanks, 6 healers, and 17 dps. That means you have a ratio of 8.5 DPS per tank. This is the reason dungeon queues are so long. If you pulled all the offspec tanks out of the queue, you would take that 30 minute queue and it would become an hour and a half or more. Would you seriously be willing to spend another hour in the queue, every time you do a dungeon for the next 8+ weeks to avoid the 1-2 times a tank rolls and wins an item from you. Isn’t it better to run 3x as many dungeons, getting 3x as much JP, reputation, and loot (since most leather slots have multiple dungeons that drop appropriate items).
Not only that, but we are talking about dungeon level loot only, not BIS raiding gear. This is the stuff you will use for a couple weeks until you get your epics from dungeons, BOEs, and reputation. I personally (and I have a warlock so I am speaking from this view) would be happy to lose 1-2 items to a healer or tank if it means I spend 16 less hours in the queue over the next two months.
Lastly, who makes up the rules about what gear is appropriate for who? In the example I talked about in my podcast, I rolled on an agility neck as the tank. The reality is that feral tanks and dps want exactly the same gear…agility based items with ideally crit and mastery on them. The only difference between the two is how you enchant/gem items. In fact, I tank in my dps gear. The days of ferals using str/defense based necks, rings, and backs are over. I am even using an agility/mastery trinket to tank with (as is the main tank in my guild). And the neck I rolled on was going to be used for both my tank and dps specs.
Additionally, if a holy priest and a shadow priest are in a 5 man and a spirit cloth belt drops…who gets it? On one hand, the holy priest could argue that spirit is more important to them than it is for shadow and that shadow has an equal alternative (hit rating instead). The shadow priest could argue that healers still roll on cloth and jewelry slots even if they don’t have spirit because they can reforge/gem/enchant into it so why should he not get it since cloth items without spirit are rare (the players with warlocks and mages know this all too well). The same argument could be made for boomkins/resto druids and ele shaman/resto shamans.
My point is that there is no clear cut answer to this debate. Your opinion is likely colored based on your class and spec. But I wanted to throw out some of my logic when it comes to this subject because I don’t consider what I did to be “douchebaggery” at all.
December 22, 2010 at 9:05 am
Hey Chris,
If you read through the replies in this thread that attempt to defend your point of view you will find that almost all of them say the same thing: I have seen DPS need on tanking and healing gear so I can do it too. Attempting to justify your actions on the basis that other people do it so I can too is about as weak as it gets. You also attempt to brush off this argument by saying that these aren’t BiS items and they will only be used for a couple of weeks anyway. Well gee, that’s nice. Not only are you needing on our gear but you’re saying that you don’t really think it’s worth much either. Let me point out how hard it is already to get these drops; so far I have run about seven 5 mans in Cataclysm with my guild and I haven’t even seen a single DPS drop yet. I can’t even imagine how I would feel if I had to suffer a 40 minute queue only to see the first DPS item that I have seen in the game go to the tank.
This debate may not already be very clear, as you point out. But needing on DPS gear when you have queued as a tank sure doesn’t help clarify matters. This argument is one of the reasons why I have hated the random dungeon finder since its inception. It promotes antisocial behavior, and it takes a person with a very strong sense of justice and fairplay to hold on to that in the constant face of self-justification for shady behavior on the basis that other players are doing it as well. I hear a lot of complaints in the blogging world on how crap dps players are in PuGs. I think that a good number of excellent DPS players are not using PuGs because they are sick of losing gear in this way. So keep needing on DPS items while queued as a tank, but don’t then turn around and complain about how crap the DPS are in 5 mans. Because you’ll be getting the players that you deserve.
December 22, 2010 at 9:32 am
I think that was a topic in one of our earlier podcasts. Ryan discussed how the LFG system promotes behavior that people would never do in a non-anonymous environment. If you haven’t gone back long enough to hear that episode, it might interest you. I can look up the episode if you are interested.
But I do want to clarify again, the item I rolled on is considered a tanking item for ferals and was an upgrade for my tanking set and something I tanked with (until I bought an epic neck piece anyway). So in this instance, I rolled on tank gear as a tank.
That really is terrible luck on your part. I ran H Gundrak 24 straight days to get the epic leather pants at the beginning of Wrath so I can feel your pain. It can be infuriating. I wish you could have gotten my luck with dungeon drops because within two days I didn’t need any upgrades from heroics save one.
But let me ask you your opinion on a situation I am in now because I am curious to see what the rogue community thinks about it. The one upgrade I still need from heroics is H Tia’s Grace from H Lost City. I am assuming you are familiar with it as a rogue, but because of the obscene value of agility and mastery for ferals, it is actually the BIS dps trinkets for ferals until heroic raid loot.
Now I run H Lost City every day specifically for this trinket. Many days it is a full guild run but occasionally we pug a dps or two. I always tank for the fast queue and because I completely outgear heroics and know the encounters well so there is almost no chance we wipe at all, especially if I have a guild healer. I am assuming that if your rogue was a dps I pugged and that trinket dropped and I won it as the tank, you would be upset about that.
However, would it change your reaction if you then inspected me and saw I had tanked the entire instance with the regular version of Tia’s Grace? In fact I was tanking my guild’s raid tonight (we were missing our two main tanks tonight) using the exact same trinket. Would you still consider me taking this trinket as a tank as douchebaggery even though it is a direct upgrade to the item I not only tank heroics with but also raid bosses when I am called to tank. It also happens to be the best available trinket (that I will have access to at least for a couple weeks) in the game for my actual main spec?
On a separate topic, you have clearly done a great job with this blog. I looked through some of your old posts and you consistently get a lot of comments about your posts. Any advice for Ryan and I because while we get a decent amount of hits for the podcast each week, we can’t seem to get anyone to comment on them.
December 22, 2010 at 9:52 am
On your trinket example; would it be so hard to state up front that you are after that trinket and explain why at the beginning of the run? If you did that then I wouldn’t have a problem with it. I’ve listened to all of your episodes so far, and I remember that discussion you had. On the comments, I blogged for almost a year before I started to get regular comments. You just have to plug away and try to regularly put up good content.
December 22, 2010 at 10:26 am
Perhaps I’ll make up a macro and spam it at the beginning of LC if I see a hunter, rogue, or enhance shammy in the group as a pug.
December 23, 2010 at 8:36 am
I just got H Tia’s Grace in a full guild run today so I didn’t have to worry about it.
April 9, 2011 at 8:28 am
Re: DK needing agi spear for tanking:
I know this is late. Really late. But there’s an explanation for the DK needing that spear for tanking, if it’s the one I think it is– it turns out that Selzia’s Spear is a mastery-stacking blood DK’s BIS weapon pre-raid at this point, so it would indeed be appropriate; it has higher mastery and avoidance than any Str weapon before the Wyrm-Breaker. It has a ton of mastery, the agility converts to dodge, and DKs have enough threat that losing some strength isn’t the end of the world. I wouldn’t roll against a hunter for it, but there is some logic to it.
It’s the same insanity that makes the DK DPS tier pants better for tanking than the actual tank tier pants….
December 21, 2010 at 11:58 pm
I have seen DPS do it, too. I’ve lost items with spirit on them to caster dps of all varieties. It’s pretty stupid. I only keep a healing spec; I have never hoisted dps gear from anyone so when I lose a healing trinket to a mage, it’s pretty infuriating.
Most of the tanks I’ve run with will at least ask before they hit need. Usually the DPS says he doesn’t care (I bet he does, but if he can’t say what he means then whatever).
The role superiority attitude is just plain crappy. The bosses in new content take five people, not just a tank and a healer.
December 22, 2010 at 10:17 am
I have 9 chars past level 80 and 2 chars at lvl85. When I get them all to lvl85, there will be 3 tank specs, 3 healers, 3 ranged and 3 melee. When in a group with random people, I will have no remorse about rolling need on anything I need. I don’t have a big enough heart to care for random people that I might never meet again.
As far as tanks rolling need on dps gear, the arguement can be presented as “other people rolling need on what I want”. Tanks, healers or anyone else did their jobs in a dungeon and deserve to get a share of the spoils.
I wonder if Adam has a tanking character. Tanking is not for sissies. If you play a tank, a wipe is always blamed on the tank. You face the world to keep others behind you safe. You cannot fail. You have to maximize your performance because it may never be enough. This early in the expansion heroics are brutal for tanks. Some people give me lip for not being specced into a particular talent. If I have to endure more complaints for rolling need on offspec items while in a group with totally random people, I’d rather stick to my guildies and friends, leaving random DPS and healers to sit in hour+ queues. My main is warlock and I don’t like that at all. There is nothing interesting to do sitting in a queue. I rolled tanking chars in order to help other guildies, who have tanks and non-tanks and can tank for me, to avoid such queues. We help each other. But in a random you are better off praying to RNG gods.
“Ninjas”, people who roll need to vendor stuff, people who roll need for offspec gear, have been in this game since its inception. And you can’t change it just by talking to people.
December 22, 2010 at 10:29 am
Gosh, you’re so right. Tanks do have such a hard life doing such a stressful and important job at the front of the party and being all brave and stuff. And then nobody tells you how good you are and take your heroic efforts for granted! How awful! Well, because your life is so stressful, hard and unappreciated I suppose that does give you justification on rolling need on any drop that you want. Just don’t expect me to queue with you.
December 22, 2010 at 11:12 pm
I wrote a post about this myself today, and I’m still torn. Obviously rolling Need on any item that can benifit you is allowed by Blizzard. They have stated again and again that this is not ‘ninja’ behavior, but is the game working as intended.
My solution, while it wouldn’t work in this instance I don’t believe is to somehow implement an “offspec-need” slot. So that a healer can roll on a piece of tank gear, and not be in the Greed RNG. I’m not sure how I’d handle it for ‘stat stick’ items (ranged for melee DPS, melee for ranged DPS), but I’m sure something could be figured out.
Until Blizzard changes it though, it is a socially enforced rule, not a rule enforced by Blizzard.
December 23, 2010 at 7:20 pm
Prisoner’s dilemma crits you for >9000. You die. I believe Gevlon has a million posts related to the subject. If you’re playing with pugs who may or may not offspec need your main spec loot, then you simply level the field for yourself if you do it too. You lose tanking trinket to a holy pala, you take dps leather from a rogue. Obviously the one who bring up the unfairness of the situation (*cough* whinesaboutit *cough) is the overspecialized dps class that can only lose in that situation. But like you said, it’s what you get with the antisocial LFD as it is. I’m seriously baffled when I still encounter people who politely ask if they can need an offspec item even though they are the only one in the group that can use it (for any spec). They too, will learn.
April 27, 2011 at 11:50 am
[…] Sometimes it seems that his brain’s connection to his mouth has been switched off. I’ve taken umbrage to some of his comments before on this blog, which he foolishly tried to defend, although I did […]