The reaction to yesterdays post was fully expected. I was waiting to be called a misogynist, and it happened, (though to be honest I wasn’t expecting to being accused of being a rapist). It sure is an easy label to throw around. Kind of like if you mention that you happen to think that Israeli settlements are out of order then you immediately get labelled as an anti-semite, (queue all the comments hounding on me about comparing hating women to hating jews). One part of my post was seized upon and taken as the crux of my argument when in reality it was merely a somewhat ironic observation. Because of this it was assumed that I am some sort of sexual drop-kick who has spent the last twenty years of his life gnashing his teeth over the failure of hawt chicks in high school to give him the time of day whilst being unable to hold down a job and thus craves the opportunity to use this against the wymens of the world.
Ironic when you think about it, no? Got to love me some stereotyping.
Perhaps not. People latch onto any part of an argument that will give them ammunition, even if it means ignoring the actual facts that had been put forward.
WoW is part of an imaginary fantasy world which we use as an escape. Attempting to impose real-world issues and conditions on an imaginary world goes a long way to missing the entire point. As a male do I get all self-conscious and insecure because male figures in WoW are of a grotesquely muscular bent and in the real world I am not? Does my pysche suffer due to the fact that most of the baddies in the imaginary world are male, and thus I must jump to the conclusion that all males must inherently be evil and bad? Am I walking around counting how many times I see something that is of a male demographic and comparing it to how many female examples I can find?
It doesn’t even fucking register.
And what right would I have to try and change the game for other players purely based on my own personal set of issues? (If you take what people commented on yesterdays post then apparently I would want to have women thrown out of the game entirely apart from the few that we could string up in the town square for a good round of rape). Trying to impose real world conditions, and attempting to find role models in an online fantasy video game takes self-importance and ego driven delusion to what I thought were unscaleable heights. Which is fine, if that is your own fucked up reality. But attempting to influence the game that I play and change it to suit your own agenda of political correctness is somewhat insulting. Accusing me of being a mysognist for taking a stand against it is a cheap shot and a sign of moral cowardice.
My idea of a fantasy world is not restricted to some scantilly clad female crouched at the feet of a leering barbarian king, (although I’ll never pass that up). But as soon as you step upon the path of imposing real world conditions on a fantasy world, then you may as well chuck the whole thing in the bin and start again. I mean, where would it stop? Where would the line be drawn? I’ve seen feminists trying to decide on a common issue, and it isn’t very pretty. Not to mention we may as well let the gay community voice their displeasure at not being represented and thus this setting a bad example for the little kiddies out there. Why don’t we let religious groups in? And then athiests and anti-thiests just to even the score. Oh and we can’t leave out those pathetic fence-sitting agonstics as well. If you include one, if you bow to one pressure group to get an element of the game changed to reflect a real world issue then you must accept all of them.
Does that all seem ridiculous? Of course it does, which is my point. There is no room in the game for this nonsense. There is no “under-representation” in WoW because that is not the point of the game. Why are you coming to play a fantasy sword and sorcery game to get real world representation? And more to the point, why are you trying to impose that on me?
The Noisy Rogue 
August 27, 2010 at 7:16 am
Thank you for a well written fuck you to all those people with a warped view of the world (of warcraft). I read the post you are (I believe) commenting on and it is such a biased misrepresentation of the game it is ridiculous.
August 27, 2010 at 7:21 am
This is a response to the comments on my own post from yesterday. If there is another post regarding this issue floating around that I haven’t read, please let me know.
If you got fully confused and are actually on the side of the feminists who want to impose their own life issues on the game, I’ll leave your comment up for a good laugh.
August 28, 2010 at 9:18 am
We are talking about the same article @ mentalshaman. I am agreeing with your take on the whole topic and don’t believe that feminists, or anyone else for that matter, should be trying to impose their warped views on the game. It’s a game, nothing more, and as such feminists need to get over it.
August 27, 2010 at 7:17 am
I think I’m running a civilized discussion with you. At least I’m trying to. I never brought up your high school experiences – even if you did it yourself, to support your own argumentation – since I thought it too personal, not the way I want to run discussions. However you’re making it a bit difficult for me. You’re kind of aggressive in your argumentation, aren’t you?
You refuse others the right to even THINK the thought that the fantasy genre might evolve over time. When did WoW become your personal game? Why is it OK to discuss volley shots but not how women are presented in the world? Just because we’re hinting that it might be nice to see some more powerful female chars in the game – there are a lot of women playing these days mind you – it doesn’t mean that we’re trying to transform the game into a paradise (or hell if you see it that way) of political correctness. Just like you I play the game to escape reality. Maybe that’s why I’d like to see strong women chars there. Leaders. Because in RL we’re still missing out a lot in that aspect.
Oh well. I’d suggest you’ll try to cool down a little. Like you blog you’ll get answered you know.
August 27, 2010 at 7:25 am
If you want stronger female leaders that’s fine, (and your own comments were perfectly civilized by the way. Scroll down and read some of the others though).
But if that’s the case then I demand that WoW stop making it’s male leaders be whimpy and flawed and crap with chicks, and then go on to becoming undead and leading armies of undead through the world because that portrays men in a bad light.
The game is what it is. My whole point is not that you shouldn’t have strong female leaders. My argument is that we should not begin to look for these in an online fantasy roleplaying game.
August 27, 2010 at 11:01 am
Adam, why not? Seriously, why not?
Firstly, by responding the complaints of women about the representation of female characters by using it as a springboard to complain about the representation of men you are employing a typical silencing technique. Also there’s a world of difference in saying “I like WoW just the way it is” and saying “Anybody who doesn’t like WoW exactly the way it is should STFU” which I suspect is the attitude which angered so many readers, an attitude which, incidentally, you are still manifesting here.
There are problems in the representation of *both* male and female characters in WoW – but they are *different* problems, especially since generally men do not struggle for role models whereas female characters are sexualised, objectified and generally – in all honesty – a bit rubbish. I internally cheer when I see a scene with Thrall in it, and I may think Garrosh Hellscream is a rampaging psycho but I have a degree of respect for his pyscho. Every time I see Jaina I sigh. If I had to compile a list of my favourite lore figures in WoW, they’d all be men – Sylvanas might make it on there on account of wearing a bikini but that’s kind of not okay either.
I’m genuinely confused why you think a fictional world, however ‘escapist’, should not be answerable to the real world – after all, fiction does not exist in a vacuum. You seem to assume that if WoW paid more attention to its female lore figures this would be a slippery slope that would lead to what … oh my God, gay people wanting to be portrayed in a non-stereotypical way (or, in fact, at all). What’s next, those funny coloured people expecting to be taken seriously too? Sorry, I’ve slipped into unhelpful sarcasm though. But the slippery slope of politically correct doom is a myth – a scare tactic employed so that people don’t have to face up to the reality of their own prejudices.
(Also, why would having gay people represented set a bad example to children? Homosexuality isn’t infectious, you know, or, the last time I checked, harmful to children. Or anyone.)
The problem is that the inequalities we see in Wow are actually fictional representations of real problems in the real world. When we enter a fantasy space we want to see echoes of our true selves in our potential selves – WoW currently offers that escapist mirror only to men, and although women can find strong, sexy, smart heroines they have to find them *in the gaps* left by male fantasy.
In short, I would like to share my escapist fantasies with women, not exclude them.
August 27, 2010 at 12:13 pm
You know the funny thing, Tam? You have all seized on how female leaders are portrayed in WoW. The link that I quoted yesterday to mentalshaman speaks about a great deal more than that, amongst other things quests, statues, female monsters, holiday events, spell and talent icons, armor sets, in-game jokes and humor, skimpy outfits, and more.
But obviously none of you clicked on the link, you just took what I said at face value and twisted it to suit your own agenda. Not once did I narrow my definition of attack as female leaders in the game. I provided the link to the direct piece and based my post on that.
People don’t click on links though. I find it of incredible interest that the post on your own blog yesterday which directly linked to mine, and which has had 66 comments, has not had one person click on the link to my own blog from yours. Either they had all already read my piece, (not believable), or they weren’t about to make up their own minds based on what I had written. They took your take on it at face value and attacked me accordingly. Personal attacks, mind you, something which I have not stooped to, nor will I have to in order to make my point.
And if you think that I actually wrote that a gay representation in-game would be harmful to children, then your reading comprehension skills are abysmal.
You have all dumped on me saying that I hate women, I want to exclude them, a misogynist, etc. But what you don’t get is that if this had been any other group, religious, gay, racial, handicapped, whatever, then I would have reacted in exactly the same way. I am against the imposition of real world issues on a fantasy game. In this case it happens to be a feminist agenda, so I will do my best to attack and discredit it. If it had been handicapped people I would have done the same. But if it had been, and following your line of reasoning, then I would also hate handicapped people too, right? I suppose you can just say that I hate everyone then and save some fucking time.
August 27, 2010 at 1:47 pm
Maybe some people, as I did, went to Tam’s blog from here, using the link embedded in his name.
I guess you get a lot of your readers since you are on Gevlon’s blogroll. That’s how I found this blog, for instance. People might got from Gevlon, to you, and then from here to the blogs of your commentators.
The reason that people have talked about female leaders is probably because Snieh flagged it up as an example of how women are represented already in WoW.
Pewter’s blog (which mentions the other things) is also linked from Gevlon and has been linked from just about everywhere else this week and so perhaps people don’t feel they need to read it again.
I am not calling you a misogynist, but saying that you feel the same way about the disabled or gay people (etc) and therefore can’t be a misogynist is not a very good argument and is likely to get something of a kicking on here.
August 27, 2010 at 1:52 pm
Once again you have missed my point entirely. I used gay, mens groups, disabled, religious, whatever purely as examples to make my point.
I am against the imposition of real world ideals in an online fantasy game, whatever those ideals are, good or bad.
Clear enough for you?
Feel free to misrepresent me some more.
August 27, 2010 at 2:30 pm
“Not to mention we may as well let the gay community voice their displeasure at not being represented and thus this setting a bad example for the little kiddies out there.”
Perhaps my reading comprehension and your lucidity need work.
Now to me this either reads as the under-representation of gay men sets a bad example…OR … if gay people were represented it would set a bad example to children.
Accusing people of not being able to read properly is the refuge of people unable to write.
“But what you don’t get is that if this had been any other group, religious, gay, racial, handicapped, whatever, then I would have reacted in exactly the same way.”
No, you’re right, this doesn’t make you a misogynist it makes you a bigot. ALso you seem to equating BEING A WOMAN with HOLDING A RELIGIOUS VIEW. Being a woman is not a political statement. It is not about the representation of other people’s views, it about the representation of *other people*. Keyword: people.
August 27, 2010 at 2:57 pm
“Once again you have missed my point entirely. I used gay, mens groups, disabled, religious, whatever purely as examples to make my point.”
Nope, I didn’t miss your point. The trouble is that you aren’t making your point very well and while you seem like a good guy, the way you are making it makes you sound like a bad guy.
And as predicted, you are getting something of a kicking for the way you made it.
August 27, 2010 at 2:59 pm
Actually – my last post sounds really snarky and I didn’t mean it to sound like that. Sorry. I can’t delete them on here!
August 27, 2010 at 3:08 pm
‘“Not to mention we may as well let the gay community voice their displeasure at not being represented and thus this setting a bad example for the little kiddies out there.”
Perhaps my reading comprehension and your lucidity need work.
Now to me this either reads as the under-representation of gay men sets a bad example…OR … if gay people were represented it would set a bad example to children.
Accusing people of not being able to read properly is the refuge of people unable to write.’
You’re an idiot, Starscream.
I understood that just fine. He’s (sarcastically) saying that refusing to represent gays sets a ‘bad example for the children.’ The bad example being a lack of political correctness.
Personally, I think that political correctness is a vice, not a virtue. It encourages whining and bitching and demands for special (not equal) treatment by every special-interest group.
August 28, 2010 at 11:10 am
Adam, the reason you didn’t get a single click through showing up from Righteous Orbs even though they linked to you, is because there was an error in the link.
August 27, 2010 at 10:25 pm
How can you believe that asking for exactly the same treatment as everyone else counts as “special” treatment? How is it special treatment to ask for games to include homosexual *as well* as heterosexual relationships. How is special treatment for games to include significant female characters *as well* as significant male characters? You might think that these groups are asking for better treatment than they deserve but that would just make you a bigot, wouldn’t it?
August 27, 2010 at 8:28 am
I entirely agree with you Adam, where does the line get drawn once the game has to consider real life political correctness ?
There is no representation of disabilities in the game, so perhaps a few characters in wheelchairs dual wielding axes. Vegetarians are under represented, can we have a “vegetarian only” option for character builds ? Plastic armour sets for the vegans. Negroid, hispanic, oriental facial characteristics for humans. Sexuality isn’t taken into account, a few more obviously homosexual NPC characters dotted around to show the game isn’t homophobic and as you mentioned, the game is sadly lacking in any real world religious representation.
But that’s not what the games about, it doesn’t need real world values thrust upon it, it’s a game, not reality.
August 27, 2010 at 12:14 pm
Thanks Chewy, and also to Forrest yesterday for his excellent comments.
August 27, 2010 at 3:11 pm
Emphatically agreed.
August 27, 2010 at 4:20 pm
Glad to see there are at least some people that understand what Adam is trying to say. Seriously, based on what people write in the comments, the majority of WoW players are your typical white knight. Defending points of view not because they are right, or because they believe in those, but just for the sake of doing it.
It’s pretty much like political correctness in movies. You need to have a black guy in there, a gay dude wouldn’t be bad either. Doesnt matter if the story needs them, just put them in so we don’t get complaints.
Feel free to interpret my post any way you feel like. You allready made up your mind about the entire topic.
August 27, 2010 at 4:21 pm
Um..
1. Why is it ok for a *fantasy* game to represent political INcorectness then? Because if the world of WoW was – as you think it is now – truly immune to RL problems, all in wow would be equal. There would be as many female avatars in bikini plate-mail as male. There would be balanced ratio of male/female leaders et cetera et cetera. But look here, this is *not* how it looks like now, is it? Mabe you should contemplate on this fact for a moment. Because contrary to what you clearly think, male-dominated enviroment IS NOT the “default” setting, it is not an objective ‘base point’ for all fantasy worlds to be build upon. Please consider this.
“(…)where does the line get drawn?(…) There is no representation of disabilities in the game, (…) Vegetarians are under represented (…)”
Um.. It seems that you are not aware of one small (really really small) defference in here. I did NOT woke up one day and said “hey, enough of men, I’ll be woman from today!”. I was BORN ONE. This is not something you CHOOSE (like, say.. being a vegetarian?), or something that HAPPENS to you (like, say.. becoming disabled..?). It is WHO YOU ARE. Now really, read this again and *try* to see the subtle defference. Please.
I agree that wanting to have your RL opinions/believes represented in fantasy game can be too much. But this is NOT the case. Women dont want some strange ideology imbeded into the game world, they dont want to be dominant, like the men are now, in WoW either. We just want to be on EQUAL terms, SO THAT we as well can ESCAPE – from the political INcorectness present in real world.
Are you *really* saying that THIS is too much to ask?
August 27, 2010 at 4:29 pm
“Because contrary to what you clearly think, male-dominated enviroment IS NOT the “default” setting, it is not an objective ‘base point’ for all fantasy worlds to be build upon.”
It his, however, the setting AZEROTH is built upong, to a point at least. Maybe YOU should think about that.
Gnomes didn’t wake up and said “hey, i had enough of being human today, I’m gonna be a gnome. Why is the term “gnome punting” considered funny then? Isn’t that racism? How are orcs allowed to say stuff like “filthy, pathetic human”? Isn’t that racism to?
Maybe we should go and invade Ogrimmar now that we know they have weapons of mass destruction (the Stonetalon incident). We can go and stay there for a few years and then leave saying we gave them the light and democracy.
August 27, 2010 at 5:15 pm
->@Nikola Begedin
Heh. Yeah, because when I pointed out the defference between women and vegetarians/disabled people, you go even a step further. Now we are compared not even to something present in *real life*. You compare women to gnomes. Game (!!) race. How nice of you. Wouldnt you mind telling me then, how many *gnomes* (offended by that OR not) do you know? I wonder.
Because people *playing* an imaginary race is quite a defferent thing then people being.. you know, people. I do *not* log in every morning and pick my “woman avatar” and play with it. I AM a woman. See the defference? Women are NOT an imaginary game race played by other men. Let it sink in.
Yes, male-dominated enviroment is what Azeroth is build upon. I *know* that, thats what I said before. The thing is, its not set in stone. Lore changes, enviroment/classes, and everything else changes. Thanks to poeple’s feedback mostly. And because, as we already estabilished, women are the same (*real*) people as men, there is no reason for our concerns to be thrown away, given that this is a *fantasy world* just as Adam stated and political (in)corectness should NOT have a place in it.
August 27, 2010 at 5:49 pm
@Kiliana: My female dreanei is just as real as Larissa’s female gnome or your female human paladin. Does sexism apply for in game humans only, or is it about other races to?
Are female drenei allowed to wear bikini plate or is that sexist to? What if their entire culture is such that females ARE dominant and actually wear those bikins by choice? Are they allowed to wear them then or is it still sexist?
What about female orcs? Are they allowed to wear bikini plate? Forsaken? Or is that necrophilia then?
Where do you draw the line? How is the line even defined? By who’s authority?
August 27, 2010 at 7:56 pm
->@ Nikola Begedin
Heh, if you respond to my posts, please at least bother to read what i say with understanding. I was not talking about human race inside of game. I was talking about human race.. y’know, on Earth.
Of course female draenei are allowe to wear bikini plate-mail. Just as every other female avatar. The point is – why arent male avatars able to wear them too? And why female avatars are *forced* to wear those? Its one thing when you have a choice (you wanna feel sexy? here, have a bikini plate-mail. You feel a bit too breezy? Here, just turn off bikini-option – or sth like this) and other when you are first singeled out and then forced into a thing that you probably (im not saying surely, but probably) try to run away from by playing this fantasy game in the first place.
You ask about the line? I dont like lines, I just wish for everyone to be treated equaly. If not in the real world, then at least, for crying out loud, in an online fantasy game. Because that’s what this is.. and _NOT_ “online MEN’S fantasy game”.
And it just annoys the hell out of me when people treat the latter as some sort of ‘default’ state of things, that should not be toyed with, “because where do we draw the line then?! What next, will we allow vegetarians to have their say as well? And THEN what? GNOMES??”. Yh.
August 27, 2010 at 10:11 pm
My point is, we are treated equally. We have gear, it looks a certain way and no one has a choice on how it looks except blizzard. I may not like my T10, but i sure as hell will wear it in order to get the stats i want.
Before all this crap, i never even considered female gear to be sexist. It was just gear. If someone was using your picture and gluing plate bikini on it, then yes, I would consider that wrong and would be all for stoping it. What is hapenning at the moment is simply that virtual characters are wearing virtual clothes and people are taking things personally. Not all female players play female characters and vice versa. No one is being sexist towards you, it’s just how the game world and design style is.I see no point in talking about real people when you arent controlling real people. You can complain about Hyborian Age (the world of Conan the Barbarian) the same way. It wouldn’t make you right. It would just make you rude.
Also, I don’t get the whole male-female conflict here. First of all, my human paladin looks pretty hot in one of those sexy black dresses and bunny ears. Secondly, how is females looking like males in plate armor better than this? What, equality means “looking like a man?” What’s even funnier is the fact that Wrath has way less “plate bikinis” than BC did.
I’d rather have Blizzard using their time to create content that matters rather than wasting it on designing an additional set of textures for each piece of gear in the game. Guess what? For most people, even lots of female players, that DOES NOT matter.
August 27, 2010 at 10:58 pm
Eh. I told you that the gear is only by-product and that it is not about that, didnt I?
If you think, that the way wow is now, it treats males and females equaly, then you really should look again. And maybe pay more attention to what you see.
The fact, that *you* did not consider a part of game sexist is not a proof that it is not. It just shows your lack of thought in that subject. And I will point this again, because you are really stuck with the gear subject: it is not about the gear.
And again, as I said before, the game is not set in stone. Game changes all the time. And shining some light an issue that is real, and affects milions of players is NOT rude. It is feedback and voicing real concerns. As with any other issue that, since 5 years ago, any player could notice and point it out to developers.
Being on equal terms is NOT the same as being identical, you know.
“I’d rather have Blizzard using their time to(…)” that is your opinion. But you dont own Blizzard.
“Guess what? For most people, even lots of female players, that DOES NOT matter.” Says who exacly? YOU. Show me please the statistics (from a legit source) to back up this claim. Because since you make statments like this, i assume you have some solid grounds for it, do you?
August 27, 2010 at 11:38 pm
“Eh. I told you that the gear is only by-product and that it is not about that, didnt I?
If you think, that the way wow is now, it treats males and females equaly, then you really should look again. And maybe pay more attention to what you see.”
===============
Fine then, i wont focus on gear. Let’s go with the story. Do you honestly think that when the writer was writing the Arthas/Jaina story he was thinking “women are not equal to men and thus arthas should be the one that brakes jaina’s heart”? If so, you are stupid.
Do you also think that when the writer was writing the part about Sylvannas, he was thinking “elf females are hotter so ill go with a girl ranger making Arthas’ job hard so he can also call her a bitch when he finally catches her”? Sorry to say this, but my conclusion would be the same as above.
As for Garosh calling Sylvannas a bitch, i dont even see a point in discussing it. She was being a bitch there and he just called it how he saw it. If it was a male banshee (oxymoron), he would be calling him a dog and it would work just as well.
Is there any chance you will understand what im trying to say? No where in the game does anyone say that women cannot be strong leaders. No where in the game does anyone say that women are weaker or have a lesser position in any of the in game factions. The way the story is is just the way the story is. You are the one that’s giving it a different meaning.
“Says who exacly? YOU. Show me please the statistics (from a legit source) to back up this claim. Because since you make statments like this, i assume you have some solid grounds for it, do you?”
================
Says empirical evidence. I dont’s see a majority of the 11 million subscribers, or even the majority of the female part of that number complaining about this. I just see a small number of loud individuals. It’s the same logic that blizzard (and thank god for that) applies for all the other QQ on the forums:
People that dont mind something arent being loud about not minding something.
“And again, as I said before, the game is not set in stone. Game changes all the time. And shining some light an issue that is real, and affects milions of players is NOT rude. It is feedback and voicing real concerns. As with any other issue that, since 5 years ago, any player could notice and point it out to developers.”
==============
The game is not set in stone and it is constantly changing and that’s all great. Changing or even retconning it just for the sake of political corretness is plain dumb, and i can’t even count the number if times i’ve said this. It does not promote equality on any basis, it promotes special treatment.
It does that in the same way that lowering the physical requirement for women applying for military service just so you would get more women in the military does.
It does it in the same way that hiring more women to satisfy a company statistic, regardless of skill does.
August 28, 2010 at 12:35 am
“Do you also think that when the writer was writing(…)”
Well, exacly my point. When the writer was writing the lore, he didnt even thought about this. Because part of people in general, this is a non-issue. Like i said in my last post: the way WoW is now, it is not openly discrimative towards anyone. What it is, it’s this passive way of saying “Look, its great, isnt it? Huh? What? What discrimation? Where? Noone is saying/doing anything wrong, right?” Well, yeah. I said, its passive. It’s this assumtion, that what we have now IS the default, proper way of things. Because its written from a white-male point of view. Who has priviladges other groups dont. But you cant have a game, which cater to much broader audience then white males, to be set in an enviroment mirroring their point of view, and expect that the whole rest of subscribers will keep quiet, because well.. “this IS the way things are”, isnt it?
Hm. Empirical evidence. You know, pulling something out your… head can be empirical, yeah, but it is NOT evidence, so dont missuse the term.
“I dont’s see a majority of the 11 million subscribers, or even the majority of the female part of that number complaining about this(…)” <- Yeah, but you know what? I dont see majority of this 11 milion sunscribers complaining about *anything*. You know why? Because only small (REALLY small) part of players decides to make themselves heared outside of game chat. In fact it is so small, that when the RealID shit hit the fan, the "real storm" broke out on the official forum. It was one of biggest discusions like.. EVER. But do you know how many posts it had? Around 50 THOUSAND. Out of 11 milion subscribers.
If you think even for a moment, that every concern that is voiced on forums/blogs and other media is represented just by the number of people creating the posts/comenting on them, then with all the respect, YOU are the stupid one.
"Changing or even retconning it just for the sake of political corretness is plain dumb(…)". Well then following your own logic creating a game based on political INcorectness is just as dumb. So.. if WoW is this dumb why do you even bother? Or is it one of those double standards? You know, that male-priviledged game enviroment (which IS politicaly incorrect) is OK, because this is HOW THINGS ARE(tm), should be, and moar bikini wearing chicks!! This is all fine and perfectly normal. But when those smug minorities dare to try and complain then this is wrong. Because where will we draw the line? First will be women, then vegetarians in game.. and then, oh dear gods, it will spread to real world! Women in army? Why the hell should there be lowered phisycal requirements JUST BECAUSE women are BUILD defferently? Not your problem, since they dare to invade the white-male teritory, right?
Common, give me a break.
August 28, 2010 at 7:19 am
@Kiliana:
Really nothing to discuss here anymore, is it. Your entire line of reasoning is upside down, and cause and effect have switched places.
Im gonna say one last thing and then i’m out.
There are plenty of wqmen in the army that got there because they satisfy the regular requirements. They arent the problem.
August 28, 2010 at 1:38 pm
Yeah, because in the end, if you fail to make it your way, then it MUST be because my point of viev is wrong, right?
I guess we *really* will have to agree to disagree then.
P.S. I see you really like pulling stuff out of your head and making statments out of it. But just because you say something, it does NOT make it a fact. Just a tip, for the future.
August 28, 2010 at 3:29 pm
I see you just love to twist things around so they fit your little agenda, so i will elaborate one last time:
“Well, exacly my point. When the writer was writing the lore, he didnt even thought about this.”
——————————–
Maybe he did, maybe he din’t, IT DOESN’T MATTER. It’s the writer’s story and he dedices how to write it. You don’t ask him to go back and change it just because you didn’t like a part. You either accept the part and move on or you reject it and move on. Those are your two options in the real world.
“Because part of people in general, this is a non-issue. Like i said in my last post: the way WoW is now, it is not openly discrimative towards anyone.
———————
So what’s your problem then? If something or someone isn’t actively doing anything wrong then there should be no issue. Any passive properties you assigned to that person or thing are then there because of you. You are effectively creating the issue out of thin air.
What it is, it’s this passive way of saying “Look, its great, isnt it? Huh? What? What discrimation? Where? Noone is saying/doing anything wrong, right?” Well, yeah. I said, its passive. It’s this assumtion, that what we have now IS the default, proper way of things. Because its written from a white-male point of view.”
—————–
Exactly, it is a story written by a person, if you don’t like it, then write your own damn story. There is no default way of things anywhere. There is the Orc, Forsaken, Blood Elf, Human, Dwarven, Gnomish, Draenei, Tauren and Trollish way of things and they are all diferent from each other and from the reality we live in. In addition to that, and i cant emphasise this more, they are concieved by a preson that is NOT YOU. Their world, their story, their rules.
“Who has priviladges other groups dont.”
——————-
And what would those be. Please, do name at least a few in the modern western society and at least one related to this game. I’m not saying there arent any, i just get the fealing you have no idea what a privilege is, what a right is and what equality is.
“But you cant have a game, which cater to much broader audience then white males, to be set in an enviroment mirroring their point of view, and expect that the whole rest of subscribers will keep quiet, because well.. “this IS the way things are”, isnt it?”
—————
Yes you can and yes you do, it happens all the time. I’m not asking anyone to change Twilight because it portrays a completely unrealistic notion of romance catered women of all ages. I can hate it, i can loathe it and i can avoid it, but I’m not phoning the author and demanding to go back and change it.
“Hm. Empirical evidence. You know, pulling something out your… head can be empirical, yeah, but it is NOT evidence, so dont missuse the term.”
—————–
It’s based on experience, so it’s empirical, and it’s evident of the fact that the majority doesn’t complain. If the majority did complain, be it on the forums or just in their mind, the game wouldn’t have 11 million subscribers, with a relatively large precentage of those being female.
“If you think even for a moment, that every concern that is voiced on forums/blogs and other media is represented just by the number of people creating the posts/comenting on them, then with all the respect, YOU are the stupid one.”
—————-
I’m not assuming anything, you are the one assuming that the majority agrees with you. All i’m doing is observing the fact that only a small number of people is complaining. A large percentage of the forum is constatly complaining about class changes, gameplay changes or any other change for that matter. If that percentage was truly representative of the community as a whole, the game would have failed five years ago.
“Changing or even retconning it just for the sake of political corretness is plain dumb(…)”. Well then following your own logic creating a game based on political INcorectness is just as dumb.
————–
Sorry, that is not “following my own logic”, that is you using pseudologic to twist things into fiting your agenda. I am not doing that and neither should you if you have any respect towards the institution of a forum.
So.. if WoW is this dumb why do you even bother? Or is it one of those double standards?
————
See above.
You know, that male-priviledged game enviroment (which IS politicaly incorrect) is OK, because this is HOW THINGS ARE(tm), should be, and moar bikini wearing chicks!!
——————-
Again, how is it male privileged? Because females aren’t represented in the same percentage as in the real world? That doesn’t make it male privileged, it makes it “not representative of the real world”. Dont add meaning to something withour reason.
This is all fine and perfectly normal. But when those smug minorities dare to try and complain then this is wrong.
—————
Again, what exactly is wrong? Is the game saying being gay is wrong? Is the game saying women are less than men? No, the game doesn’t have an opinion about it.
Because where will we draw the line? First will be women, then vegetarians in game.. and then, oh dear gods, it will spread to real world!
——
Again you are not understanding what Adam was trying to say, either by choice or due to pure ignorance.
His point was, that the notion of representing a group for the sake of represanting it is ridiculous and has nothing to do with equality or rights. Your rights arent being opressed in any way. They are the same as mine. You are just asking for more than that.
Women in army? Why the hell should there be lowered phisycal requirements JUST BECAUSE women are BUILD defferently? Not your problem, since they dare to invade the white-male teritory, right?
—————-
My impression was that we are all equal, no? The physical requirements arent being lowered for everyone, they are being lowered for women only, purely for the reason of having more women in the army. Again, there are plenty of women who can fullfill the same requirements that men do. They aren’t the problem. The problem is lowering the standards and thus lowering the quality of the product purely for the sake of APPARENT political coretness and for no other reason whatsoever.
Basically, what the army is saying here is “We need to have more women so they wont accuse us of being sexist, so let’s accept even those that cant meet our standards.
Common, give me a break.
———-
No, i wont give you a break. You are not asking for equal oportunity, you are asking for equal outcome even though you allready have equal oportunity enforced by law in most modern countries.
Well, guess what, equal outcome should not be handed to you, it should be achived by you. You don’t get it by being loud and demanding, you get it buy achieving the ruiquirements needed to achieve that outcome.
August 29, 2010 at 7:01 am
“I was BORN ONE. This is not something you CHOOSE (like, say.. being a vegetarian?), or something that HAPPENS to you (like, say.. becoming disabled..?). It is WHO YOU ARE.”
Umm, by that logic are you saying that being a paraplegic or having any other disability is not part of who that person is? Sure they may not have been born that way but they can no sooner change their condition than you can your sex. (Actually, if you really wanted to a sex change operation is possible for gender issues but I never heard of successful surgeries to fix any of the numerous permanent disabilities out there).
There’s no need to belittle the beliefs/conditions of others because the chip on your shoulder tells you your concerns are the most important.
August 27, 2010 at 11:34 pm
First, there is no “meat eater” option on the character build, and there is “vegan friendly” armor – roll a clothie or a plate wearer. Veganism is not the same thing as being BORN A WOMAN.
The rest of your post – why the sarcasm? What on earth would be the problem with having a disabled character or two? There are a LOT of wounded people in Azeroth, why NOT show them? Why NOT have more facial options? Why NOT have a LGBT NPC? Being disabled, gay, or being of hispanic orgin isn’t a “real world value”. It’s not a VALUE at all. It’s just a way that people ARE.
It doesn’t have to be what the game is about – it’d a game about fighting evil dragons in a wartorn fantasy world, in which people play and interact with diverse characters. Not even the most fervent wow feminist wants to play a game ABOUT feminism (we have bingo for that), we want to play Warcraft.
August 27, 2010 at 11:40 pm
Because putting any of them in the game for the sake of just putting them in is stupid, cheapens the story and does nothing for equality. It grants attention and special treatment, not equality.
August 28, 2010 at 1:48 am
Please, I just don’t understand. Why would putting them in cheapen the game? How does being a strong woman or a gay person “attract attention”. How is having ONE gay person “special treatment” compared to thousands of straight people? They’d just be going about their lives, like all the other NPCs.
August 28, 2010 at 12:05 pm
“Because putting any of them in the game for the sake of just putting them in is stupid, cheapens the story and does nothing for equality. It grants attention and special treatment, not equality.”
Possibly the best thing I’ve seen come out of this debate. 100% agree with you
August 27, 2010 at 9:15 am
I *think* the point is that warcraft is a brilliant, fun, exciting game and girls want to play it. They (rightly in my view) wish that it were a bit less sexist, since it must jar a little to have to put up with that sexism to play.
I have two young daughters, and the reason why all this stuff bugs me is that I want them to grow up to be Arthas, Varian or Thrall, not Jaina or that Nelf leader who’s name I can’t even remember. I would like there to be someone cool in the game that they can identify with, without me worrying that I’m teaching them that it’s right to expect to play second fiddle to a guy all the time.
Sadly so far they appear to be becoming Garrosh, so watch out world.
August 27, 2010 at 4:24 pm
What the hell is wrong with Tyrande? Even though the guy she loved decided to leave her for 10000 years and go to sleep instead, she remaind strong and led hear people during the entirety of those 10000 years. She is pretty much the strongest of leaders in the game.
Fine, the Lore didn’t really mention her since WC3, but she had and entire campaign there. Also, if you are gonna talk about badly represented females, Night Elves as a race are really of limits. Their entire army is all female. The males are typically druids and other spellcasters. Their god is female. One of their greatest queens was female. Their current leader is female. What more do you want?
August 27, 2010 at 5:10 pm
‘One of their greatest queens was female.’
…All Night Elf queens are female. At least, I fervently hope so. The only race with male queens is Blood Elves.
OHNOES!!, I went and made a statement that insufficiently considers the feelings of homosexuals. Hate mail inc.
August 27, 2010 at 5:51 pm
Sorry ’bout that, didn’t realise what i was typing, but im hoping you get my point, atleast the people who’s opinion i actually care about. You know, the ones that use logic and reason to make decisions.
Good humor! 😀
August 27, 2010 at 11:04 am
Women make up half the world population; I’m not sure how you can equal trying to appeal to them with overdone political correctness trying to appease every single minority group.
And I find it a bit sad that the differences between male and female representation in the game don’t even register with you – you don’t have to be hunting for little details to notice that many NPC races don’t even have distinguishable females for example: gnolls, kobolds, ogres, tuskarr… I could make a very long list. I find that simply strange and illogical, actually hurting the fantasy.
You say stuff like, “Well, if women want cooler female characters, then I want cooler male characters too!” To that I say, sure, why not? I’m not sure why you have to get so angry about players asking for changes that would make the game more fun for them.
August 27, 2010 at 4:35 pm
“Women make up half the world population; I’m not sure how you can equal trying to appeal to them with overdone political correctness trying to appease every single minority group.”
So it’s a number’s game then? How many gays does it need to be in the world in order to represent them in every game we make from now on? Do we need to establish a ratio for all the “social minorities” and make that a starting point for every imaginary world we, you know, IMAGINE?
“And I find it a bit sad that the differences between male and female representation in the game don’t even register with you – you don’t have to be hunting for little details to notice that many NPC races don’t even have distinguishable females for example: gnolls, kobolds, ogres, tuskarr… I could make a very long list.”
This is just getting ridiculous. First of all, how do you even know those races have 2 sexes. Maybe they procreate by mytosis or maybe they spring from the earth like flowers. Maybe they have 4 different sexes or maybe they have 2, and they even are represented in the game, but you are being sexist and are unable to differentiate.
I have an idea, let’s all go and make Robert E. Howard change how women are represented in his Hyborian Age. I mean, did you read any of those comics? Talk about SEXIST!
August 27, 2010 at 4:39 pm
Actually I would argue that you can’t tell what the sexes of these mobs are, (those murlocks all look the same to me, not to mention gnolls). Which means that the ones that we encounter could in fact all be female …
August 27, 2010 at 4:47 pm
@Adam: Exactly my point.
August 27, 2010 at 5:13 pm
Do we need to establish a ratio for all the “social minorities” and make that a starting point for every imaginary world we, you know, IMAGINE?
We may not need to, but I wouldn’t consider it a bad thing either. My imagination isn’t threatened by the presence of different demographics than my own. ‘:)
First of all, how do you even know those races have 2 sexes.
Not always, but for example with ogres we do and yet we never actually see any females. Yes, they might just all look the same, but considering the very noticeable dimorphism in all the playable races, I’d find it odd. Only when a former NPC race suddenly becomes playable Blizzard suddenly creates a feminine form… (hello there, worgen). It’s awkward.
August 27, 2010 at 5:57 pm
“Not always, but for example with ogres we do and yet we never actually see any females. Yes, they might just all look the same, but considering the very noticeable dimorphism in all the playable races, I’d find it odd. Only when a former NPC race suddenly becomes playable Blizzard suddenly creates a feminine form… (hello there, worgen). It’s awkward.”
We do? As far as i can tell, they spring another head and then split completely from the old body as a whole new individual. That’s just my observation though? Is there an actually official statement on how ogres do it? I mean, o know there are half-ogres in the world, but that doesnt mean that they had an ogre mom. Who knows how that mechanic works.
“We may not need to, but I wouldn’t consider it a bad thing either. My imagination isn’t threatened by the presence of different demographics than my own. ‘:)”
I don’t either. Point is, Azeroth wasn’t written like that. Even more important point is, there is no point in doing something like that if it is in no whay important to the setting. Political correctness for the sake of political corretnest is the stupidest thing to exist in today’s world. It cheapens everything it’s contained in.
August 27, 2010 at 6:33 pm
WoWWiki has a section about female ogres in the lore.
And the world of Azeroth isn’t something static, it’s evolving constantly. Making changes to make sure that it continues to appeal to a large variety of people strikes me as only logical.
August 27, 2010 at 6:40 pm
Shintar,
I agree. But making change merely for the sake of making change to please special interest groups strikes me not only as illogical but profoundly unfair.
August 27, 2010 at 10:12 pm
“I have an idea, let’s all go and make Robert E. Howard change how women are represented in his Hyborian Age. I mean, did you read any of those comics? Talk about SEXIST!”
Just because there are things out there that are worse, doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t try and change the things you can. Just because other minorities aren’t represented, doesn’t mean its ok to not represent all of them. There should be more women in wow, more gays in wow, more blacks, more asians, more everything in wow. Right now we are discussing the sexist part of that equation, and not the homophobic part, or the racist part, that doesn’t mean that they aren’t there, and they shouldn’t change. They are there, and it should change, but that doesn’t change the fact that the game is a bit sexist (less that some, more than others), and that that should be changed.
August 27, 2010 at 10:15 pm
when you describe women, blacks, gays, etc as a “special interest group” you are minimizing their value… they are an interest group, there are a LOT of women who play, shouldn’t they have their views represented in game? There are a lot of homosexuals who play, shouldn’t they? You get your views / values represented in game, how does it hurt you if others do too? Why do you oppose this so much, does it make you feel like you will lose some of your privilege and power if their views are represented?
August 27, 2010 at 11:33 am
Also, you keep saying that gender representation doesn’t matter, but at the same time get really worked up about the idea that it might matter to some people. If it truly doesn’t matter to you, then it also shouldn’t matter if it changed a little in favour of women. If it does matter, then why would you deny people their voice in trying to improve it?
August 27, 2010 at 4:39 pm
The problem isn’t change on itself, the problem is change for the sake of gender equality alone.
Hm, it’s really sexist how Jaina keeps whining about Arthas. He dumped her, she should be stronger Let’s make her stop. NO, just NO. That would change their entire background and would cheapen the story. And guess what, it does make her strong. A woman repressing her feelings for the sake of apearing strong, no matter how bad it really is isnt a strong woman. It’s an insecure and week woman. At least that is how i see it.
As for the plate bikinis, i really dont care. I’m just expecting major complaints from female players when their new shiny and realisticly looking plate armors are to ugly and make female characters look like guys. I’m so gonna laugh when that happens.
August 27, 2010 at 10:17 pm
It is sexist that most of the major female characters in the game are merely there as supporting staff for the males they are involved with. Jania is an incredibly powerful mage, yet we know so much more about her whiney love for Arthas than we do for her leadership and magic.
August 27, 2010 at 5:58 pm
“guess what, it DOESN’T make her strong” is what i wanted to write, off course.
August 27, 2010 at 11:48 am
Sorry this post completely lost me?
And I’m not bothered at all!
PS On a completely unrelated matter what about giving female characters +15 Cooking Skills in cata.
August 27, 2010 at 3:13 pm
‘what about giving female characters +15 Cooking Skills in cata.’
That is commonly known as ten pounds of Win in a five-pound bag.
August 27, 2010 at 5:05 pm
Sorry but it was brought to my attention that there are no female top chefs so it would kinda be like…. false to give that bonus 🙂
but what about 10% on cloth armour repairs instead
August 27, 2010 at 6:36 pm
You’re so very clever with your “get back in the kitchen joke.”
“And I’m not bothered at all!” Well then, clearly none of the rest of us should be either! Thanks for clearing that up for us!
(because this is the internet, I will spell out here: YES, THAT WAS ALL SARCASM.)
August 27, 2010 at 10:15 pm
The only people that are moving the female movement backwards here are people like you, by blowing things out of proportions and making something out of nothing.
The only thing you are acomplishing is promoting a general sense of annoyance towards people like you. Not the entire female sex, mind you, just people like you. The “white knights” and the “feminists”. The quotation marks are there for a reason. In reality, you are neither.
August 27, 2010 at 10:36 pm
Nikola, many actual women strongly disagree with you. The small things are just as important as the big ones, because those small things shape culture.
August 28, 2010 at 10:39 am
@Karen: Disagree about what exactly? Lack of representation is not sexism. Sexism is sexism, lack of representation is lack of representation. Just because at the current time in Azeroth, there are only two strong female leaders and the current female fashion is somewhat revealing (and i do mean only somewhat, as it was way more revealing during Vanilla or BC) does not mean that the game is sexist.
Adding characters that represent any sort of group that feels their rights are in yeopardy in the real world just for the sake of adding them is stupid and unnecessary. It doesn’t mater if its a game, a book or a movie, it’s just plain dumb.
There actually is a gay character in Cataclysm and i dont mind one bit because it makes sense in the context. He wasnt added there just to please someone.
A woman can very well dress in a plate mail bikini if she choses to. She does not represent you in Azeroth, you are the one that are suposed to play in her role. That’s the point of role playing games, to get out of your role and step into another.
Jaina IS strong, she let her father get killed by orcs because she knew what he was doing was wrong. Even though she loves Arthas and it was tearing her apart, se was aware that he has to go down. Not showing emotion is not strength.
August 27, 2010 at 10:18 pm
Let me cry a river for you… your life must be so tough, being a white male.
August 28, 2010 at 10:47 am
Discrimination goes both ways, or are you one of those people that claim you cant be sexist towards someone because he’s a man?
August 28, 2010 at 8:43 pm
I know that discrimination goes both ways. My general point was to minimize your voice, as you have been trying to minimize the voice of others here.
August 27, 2010 at 12:29 pm
Okay, this argument is starting to sway to overreaction. When people are saying we need to have disabled representation then we’ve gone too far. Stick to the point and stick to the facts.
I’ve already made the same points again and again. So I will sum them all up one more time.
WoW, is a story, written by a man who’s name and Bio I have linked already. This was his vision and to change his vision without him deciding to do it on his own, isn’t right. You can’t justify that.
If women want the rolemodels they want, then MAKE them. All I see are complaints and outright BULLSHIT about there not being enough rich women out there to start something like this or to come up with strong female leads. Every artist has to start somewhere. You don’t start rich and you don’t start famous. Maybe you should create a female lead that everyone can relate to and become famous from that.
There are in fact MANY rich women, not as many as men, but you can hardly blame sexism for this. I know some smart women with a cutthroat business attitude that make more money in a month then I ever will in my lifetime. I know plenty more(not personally) who are the same. Maybe you should try and influence these women into making an MMO for women so they can feel empowered.
I’ve already said that men and women want different things out of life(In general, there are always exceptions to every rule). Men just happen to be into this nerdy/geeky line of thought a lot more then women. So many jobs out there screaming for equal representation. So much so that we lower standards for them so that women can get in and the women STILL DONT GO.(I’m in the military, women have a much lower physical standard to achieve them me but they are still expected to do the same job) Nobody is making you chose another path, you have chosen it for yourselves. You say that society is to blame because they force you into this line of thinking. WRONG!! It’s time to grow up and take responsibility for your own life and actions. Plenty of women out there have done so and made something of themselves. if it’s your desire to make a name for yourself by complaining about somebodys art then thats really truely sad. I’ll group that kind of crap in with the Octo mom who made herself famous by having too many kids and plastic surgery.
August 27, 2010 at 2:08 pm
Wonderful comment, thankyou.
August 27, 2010 at 3:01 pm
Awesome. Couldn’t have said it better
August 27, 2010 at 4:41 pm
Word!
Seems the trend these days is to mistake equality for what is in fact special treatment.
August 27, 2010 at 4:54 pm
“WoW, is a story, written by a man who’s name and Bio I have linked already. This was his vision and to change his vision without him deciding to do it on his own, isn’t right.”
As has previously been pointed out, people ask for changes to the game (including the lore) all the time. Blizzard themselves change the lore, and retcon all the time. Why is asking for this small change such a problem?
“If women want the rolemodels they want, then MAKE them.”
Please explain how women are supposed to make role models in warcraft if you’ve previously said they aren’t allowed to ask for the lore or story to be changed.
“”
Is not about warcraft, it’s a rather unpleasant rant about how women (apparently) should not complain about sexism in the real world because it’s their own fault for not taking matters into their own hands. It is actually the opposite of many of the things that Adam has said in his post and elsewhere since I believe Adam has said that he recognises that sexism is a problem in the real world and is a Very Bad Thing. You do not seem to. Anyway, the rest of your post is not about warcraft.
August 27, 2010 at 4:56 pm
The bit in inverted comments before the last paragraph was supposed to say “(the rest of your post)”. I guess the page treated my brackets as html tags.
August 27, 2010 at 7:08 pm
“it’s a rather unpleasant rant about how women (apparently) should not complain about sexism”
Sorry, I don’t see that written at all. I don’t believe Adam is making his point about “women”, its aimed at anyone and everyone.
August 27, 2010 at 7:38 pm
“Please explain how women are supposed to make role models in warcraft if you’ve previously said they aren’t allowed to ask for the lore or story to be changed.”
You’re not understanding at all. What I said is you can’t make an artist change his work. So that removes warcraft from the debate table. I also went on to mention things about making role models and convincing rich women to start up their own MMOs. Which is a solution to your problem of representation.
I know lore has been sacrificed in the past for game changes and it will continue to be sacrificed in the future for changes, but wrong is wrong. The changes made before shouldn’t have happened. If you’re going to do that make a new story with different lore.
Nobody changes lord of the rings to add a female hobbit to the mix. But they DO however have the sword of truth. Which is a fantasy style book with VERY strong female leads.
Seriously, it’s all “bitch bitch bitch. people don’t make enough things about me.” When I mention making them yourself, you tell me it can’t be done. Well, I’m sorry if millions of others have figured it out and you haven’t. It’s hardly my fault.
August 27, 2010 at 12:39 pm
One thing I don’t understand is why you had to mess with feminists at all. You will not get anything useful by contradicting them.
August 27, 2010 at 3:16 pm
Because sometimes you need to fight the good fight on principle, not because you expect to actually win.
August 27, 2010 at 4:07 pm
Sjonner, your posts are all right on the money and apleasure to read. Thanks.
August 27, 2010 at 6:10 pm
“The good fight”? Please. Don’t try to dignify your privilege-laden defense of a flawed status quo by attributing some sort of nobility to it.
“Sjonner, your posts are all right on the money and apleasure to read BECAUSE YOUR PRIVILEGED MISOGYNIST VIEWPOINT AGREES PERFECTLY WITH MY OWN. Thanks.”
Fixed that for you, Adam. If you’re going to backslap and congratulate each other for being in such perfect agreement, at least be honest about it.
August 27, 2010 at 2:08 pm
[…] Adam isn’t a bad guy [Edit: sorry that should read "Adam is a complete bigot – I particularly like the bit where he suggests with horror the notion that if you start listening […]
August 27, 2010 at 7:14 pm
Adam – you say you think it’s ridiculous to ask for representation for real life minority groups in a fantasy environment. Let me ask you – have you ever been seriously involved, the way you are with Azeroth – in a game where most of the dominant characters were women? Where most of the characters were homosexual? Where most of the characters were of a race you are not part of – say a video game where you could only choose one avatar that looked vaguely white and all the others were black, and there were no white NPCs?
I sort of doubt it, because those video games *do not exist*. If they do exist, they’re likely a specialty game, without the mass player passion and appeal that WoW has. The fact that “It doesn’t even fucking register” is priviledge. You don’t end up with priviledge because you’re a bad person or because you actively hate women (or minorities, or LGBT folks, etc) – you just do. I do, too! I have to consciously think about the fact that my experience is different *and easier* because I am a member of many dominant groups.
August 27, 2010 at 7:53 pm
Your post comes off to me as if you’re saying it would be wrong of this blogger to not play those games you mentioned about other races and sexual preferences. To be fair, it’s not. Everyone has a right to chose the company they keep. This is why we have different countries. Different people with different view points. Different political parties, religions, languages…these things are all personal preference.
Over the centuries of human kind existing people have segregated themselves so they are among their own kind that think like they do. It’s comforting. I personally fall in with nerdy folks like myself who don’t drink and don’t have any religion.
I realize a lot of people are naive enough to think we can all get along, but we can’t. That’s not possible for humans at this point in our evolution.
I don’t have a problem with women, homosexuals, disabled or anything else. I believe everyone has the right to be who and what they are without fear of being hated or hurt by anyone who doesn’t agree.
I also agree with the concept of the “good old boys club”(as long as it’s minding it’s own damn business and not centered around preventing others from having their human rights) this club was created so they can all be among like minded people for comfort. I DONT agree with other people who are left out of said club trying to get in by complaining or using the law against them. Make your own club or join one you agree with. No sense ruining everyone elses comfort for your selfishness.
August 27, 2010 at 9:51 pm
Whether ot not it would be “wrong” is a moot point, since they don’t exist. And yes, I think it’s wrong to say you wouldn’t play a game where you had to have a black avatar as a white person, while failing to understand why black people might want a black avatar in Azeroth. (Or strong female leaders, or an openly queer NPC, or a disabled NPC, or gender-preference neutral storylines.)
WoW isn’t designed to be anybody’s club. If you’re playing it, you’re their customer. 35% of WoW players are female. The majority of WoW players are not English speaking. You are not their only demographic and Blizzard would be a much poorer company today if they hadn’t reached out to non-traditional gamers, both financially and culturally.
Non-“traditional” gamers have every right to play and have their voices heard about whatever they want to talk about. Blizzard listens to their customer base about a lot of things in the game – class balance, whether or not things are fun or boring, whether or not their players want to have ot farm consumables, whether players want funny quests instead of 85 levels of Kill 10 Boars, whether or not pallies need pvp nerfs. Blizzard listens to casuals and to hardcore players, to arena players and raiders, and builds a game that most people are relatively happy in. Why shouldn’t they listen to contented mainstream gamers as well as minorities?
Your right to be comfortably insulated from anyone different than you does not superceed anyone else’s right to use a publically available product that they pay for, and say whatever the hell they want about it. Frankly, you do not have a right to be comfortably insultated in Azeroth, since you do not own the servers, or the blogs, where the community gathers.
How on earth would you be less comfortable in wow if the female avatars had full body armor, or if there were strong female characters who were not accessories to men? How would you be disenfranchized if there were more non-european faces? If you would feel threatened by this somehow, like your club ws being “invaded”, can you not see how much it must rankle to see yourself excluded? Head’s up, Azeroth Is My Club, Too.
August 27, 2010 at 10:04 pm
Ps, Privilege is this:
A game about strong white, cis-gendered straight men is a video game about people.
A game about non-white, transgendered, disabled, fat women is a crazy specialty item that most people wouldn’t want to play.
If you’re in the minority, you are forced to experience empathy with the overriding cultural norms – a woman in a wheelchair understands that a pictogram of a man walking across a street means it’s a cross walk for her too. A man, seeing a pictogram of a person in a dress on a door, knows it’s not a restroom for him. Boys refuse to read storybooks about women, but girls love Harry Potter. Most non-white children have a white doll, most white children have no non-white dolls. The further you are from the mainstream, the more you are forced to extend your idea of what being a Person is, or to experience a world that tells you that YOU are not the default of Personhood. And I think acknowleding that that’s the way the world works makes you stronger, not “complaining”.
August 27, 2010 at 11:26 pm
Great post TM, I wanted to write something here just now, but you said it already, and SO much better. Thanks 🙂
I mean, since from what I see here, the oposition can /brofist each other after coming out with all this sexist (and what not) cr.. stuff, why cant I? 😀
And to oposition: if you still dont get why it is so big of a deal, try applying what TM (and others) said to WoW – a MMO game, which has over 11 (or 14 or whatever it is now) MILION subscribers. Any way you look at it, there is no other game like this. That’s why WoW is one that – wether we want it or not – sets an example for others. “If Blizz says its OK to discriminate women or whoever else, then it must really be OK, since, y’know, they have 11 MILION subs and all, right?”
Thats why I think, it’s very important to talk about this stuff. Especially that some people dont even SEE what this is all about. Because they treat white male-dominant enviroment as a DEFAULT one. Not privileged (for white men), but *default*. And thats just wrong.
I get why some might not agree. They simply dont see it. The same way as a human from today wouldn’t think of him/herself as priviledged compared to medieval age person. But throw out health care, electricity, cell phones, WOW and all that stuff and suddenly you start to see it from other side. Its just an example ofc, I dont compare women to medieval folk, just wanted to ilustrate how people tend not to notice all the good stuff that they are used to from the day they are born.
You just take those as granted.
August 27, 2010 at 8:02 pm
Seriously Adam, if everyone is misunderstanding what you wrote about gays, its probably a failure in your writing, not a failure in their understanding.
August 28, 2010 at 1:59 am
Not everyone is misunderstanding me, actually. Read back through the comments and see for yourself.
August 27, 2010 at 9:47 pm
[…] Rogue has some very very controversial points, and I couldn’t help but link this and its followup as well, even if I don’t agree with his points of view AT […]
August 27, 2010 at 10:52 pm
Hey there, Adam. I was referred to your post from Self-Righteous Orbs and I figured I would come by and see what all the fuss was about.
You said a lot, that’s for sure and you definitely seemed to also be aware that what you were about to say was going to set off some alarms. At the core of your two posts, I get what you were trying to say. I get that you were stating that you felt that a fantasy world would no longer be a fantasy, if we tried to institute too many real world ideals into it and at that point, why are we even playing the game. I get that you state that the game is an escape for many people and it wouldn’t very well be an escape, if you have to face all the injustice and all the other pressures that are currently alive and well in the real world. I understand all of that.
Story time!
I used to play Vampire: the Masquerade (LARPing, no less) and the vampire clan that I belonged to was the Giovanni. In short, we were an ancient clan of incestuous Italian necromancers, who had a knack for making money. The family was very set in their ways and one of those ways involved still treating women like second class citizens. Even though I was a successful businesswoman, with my own small army of spirits at my command a fairly strong grasp of Necromancy, I still had to defer to my male elders and realize that there was a Glass Ceiling I would never be able to break through. It’s a lot harder to break through it when all the people standing on the other side are vampires and probably not going anywhere for a long time.
Now for a headstrong, liberal female like me, it was a little hard to reconcile my in game persona with who I am in the real world. Would I have loved for Sophia Giovanni to rise up and form a coux with the other downtrodden women in the family – absolutely. Would I have to loved to beat that stupid Capo who bossed me around over the head with a scapula and demanded exorbitant tithes from me – you betcha. But I didn’t, because that’s something I (as Erin) would have done and not my character. I was role-playing someone that wasn’t myself. In order to play my character to the best of my ability and to the truest form possible, I had to put that aside to enjoy the game.
If I would have pushed for too much of who I really am to shine through, it would have ruined the character and ruined the overall gaming experience, for myself and for the others in our troupe. When you’re in a game like that, you’re trying to be someone else. You’re living (or undead) in a world that is nothing like our world. I was a supposed to be a blood sucking, brother humping, skull grinding necromancer that was at least a few hundred years old. Some suspension of disbelief was required.
I can agree with you that I feel the game could be compromised to some degree, if we pushed too hard or pushed for too much of the real world to affect the in game world. I can’t say at what point that would be or what things are too much or too little, but I see where you were trying to go with this. I don’t think you’re a bigot, a racist or anything extreme like that. I just think you were trying to suggest something that absolutely required a bit more exposition or definition, to avoid the rampaging hordes of those that could have been and obviously were offended.
August 28, 2010 at 1:57 am
Hey Oestrus, and thank you for the insightful, intelligent and rational post. To be honest the rampaging hordes don’t bother me at all. I’m happy to let them rampage away as nothing I can say is going to stop them. I’m having a follow up post tomorrow and will try to make my point a little clearer. But once again, awesome comment, and thak you.
August 27, 2010 at 11:42 pm
Just a side question, how many “gamer gurrrlz” do we have here? Just wondering…
August 28, 2010 at 12:41 am
Well I’m one.
August 28, 2010 at 1:12 am
Present.
August 28, 2010 at 7:36 am
@Kiliana&Oestrus: Well then, i have a problem with you. Major problem. And it’s not of a sexist nature. I have no problem with girl gamers, but “gamer gurrlz” piss me off.
Now, im hoping you arent really familiar with the term, so i will post a link so you can confirm that is what you really are. If you do confirm, though, i’m puting you in the same basket as creationists, flat earth theorists, atention whores (not a sexist therm, as there are male and female versions) and other scum of the earth.
Now tell me, what do you see in this comic. Do you see a regular girl/woman player being attacked by a sexist asshole, or do you see an annoying atention whore getting what she deserves?
August 28, 2010 at 1:55 pm
Oh dear. I get what you did there. Because you see, what I answered was a simple “how many women gamers are present in this discussion” question.
But now i know it was a elaborate trap. How sneaky of you.
And here I thought that you just suck at english grammar.
And a’propos comic you linked: oh my dear gods! This IS Snottydin (if you dont know who that is, google her or sth.. should pop up her blog). Its just as the one making that comic knew her or sth.. wow.
And to answer your question: yes it was wrong. It IS WRONG to put yourself as priviledged one, wether it is man OR woman.
That is what I was trying to explain. It is NOT about making women dominant in ANY way whatsoever. It is about being equal. Reffering it to this comic:
the girl should be able to go into gaming store and buy whatever she wants without ANY strange stares thrown at her by resident geeks and employees (im not saying its always the case, its an example here, just as her behaviour was in your comic). And she will behave just as any other customer, wihout waving the ‘im a woman’ flag.
And then the two gamers (said girl and some boy) will have normal discussion about games. And thats all. This is how it SHOULD look like. This is them being EQUAL.
August 28, 2010 at 2:22 pm
“And then the two gamers (said girl and some boy) will have normal discussion about games. And thats all. This is how it SHOULD look like. This is them being EQUAL.”
===============================
And a game the lore of which describes a number of societies differet that the typical american democracy or any other modern real socitey is stopping you from doing this how?
August 28, 2010 at 3:20 pm
I see neither of the two, but I do see a person going to extremes to prove a point and possibly being more controversial than the original poster.
I think it comes down to finding a balance. Do I think the girl in the comic was right – of course not. I don’t think anyone should unecessarily flaunt something like that. Would I use the phrase attention whore – no, because I think it’s bad enough the phrase “whore” is thrown around so casually, without anyone having a grasp of how to really apply it or what it really means. Sort of like people who casually say “That’s gay!”
But on the other hand, I don’t think you should have to deny or hold back on who you really are. If I log into the game and someone asks me how my day was, I may mention I got a manicure. Because it’s what I did with my day. I got my nails done. I certainly wouldn’t elaborate and talk about how they were buffed and shined and I feel pretty because of it. But it happened.
If I’m asked to battle res someone on Vent and I can’t find them and the battle is quite intense, I can take extra seconds to type out and ask where the corpse is or I can hit my push to talk key and ask. I have a girl’s voice, because I am a girl. Should I have to hide that?
People are going to see what they want to, if they are determined to do so and once they reach that point, there is little we can do to change that. Some will see “flaunting” your gender, where others see you as just being yourself. I can agree that examples of flaunting it do occur, but I also don’t think you should have to stifle being a girl to avoid such accusations or criticisms. It’s a fine line to walk.
August 28, 2010 at 2:23 pm
Oh, and one other thing, that wasn’t a trap, that is why i asked one more time and elaborated on my question. Why so defensive?
August 28, 2010 at 1:47 am
Having waded through the oceon of responses I asked the current Mrs Chewy (King Slayer on two of her characters, double gold capped and on her way to the third – certainly a better player than I am) if she felt that she was badly represented in WoW.
She laughed and asked me to explain. After I’d given her a brief synopsis of the thread she said, “well I suppose it could look like that, but it’s just a game”
Enough said.
August 28, 2010 at 2:35 am
And Mrs Chewy speaks for all women, the world over… wait… guess not. Also how does being gold capped (which I am), or a king slayer on 2 toons (3 for me) have jack shit to do about the discussion at hand. Thats like Dr. Laura (PHD in Lit) using her PHD to give medical and psychological advice.
August 28, 2010 at 12:10 pm
So let me get this straight.
You’re female, you’ve got all these achievements in the game and yet you’re still hung up because the male/female characters game cartoons don’t represent real life ?
I congratulate you on having a life so well balanced and devoid of other concerns that this can feature so prominently.
August 28, 2010 at 2:00 am
The only debate I see here is one side trying to change things for the better, versus the other side not wanting change at all.
And you’re not bothered by the male CG models because the disproportions to reality are not SEXUAL in nature, specifically designed to arouse.
That kinda changes things.
August 28, 2010 at 7:47 am
Whooooooooosh!
Thats the sound of the point of Adam’s post flying over everyone’s head (including yours).
The problem isnt change for the better. The problem is change for the sake of satisfying an arbitrary stastistic created for the sake of political correctness. That is not change for the better. If it makes sense from a story perspective to change something, then go and do it. If you wanna do it just to make it seem less sexist, then go find a more constructive way to waste your time.
As for the models and their disproportions, if anything, the models of female humans in this game look pretty decent. The breasts arent too big (compared to other games) and, honestly, they have a pretty big ass. Now dont get me wrong, they look nice, but they certanily dont look like female characters in most other games (especially the ones comming from our eastern friends).
As for the draenei, and other races, you really can’t complain about them. They look how they look, there is no real world equivalent to compare them to.
“And you’re not bothered by the male CG models because the disproportions to reality are not SEXUAL in nature, specifically designed to arouse.”
Newsflash: The female and male body design in real life IS SEXUAL IN NATURE. That is how evolution works. That is why you dont find fat people as atractive as skinny people with the right proportions, and if you do, then that would be some sort of minor disorder on your side. Before you go all out on bashing me for “hating fat people”, im gonna stop you. Im just stating the facts, which i am well aware off, not being a skinny dude myself. There is nothing shallow about stating this. It would be shallow to completely dismiss a fat person just on the basis of his/her physical appearance, but there is nothing shallow about stating that you are less attracted to fat people.
August 28, 2010 at 8:06 am
Anyone who thinks that wow’s plate bikinis are sexually arousing needs to have their head examined.
Wow is one of the few games that I play that I would have no problem with my mom or my sister or my girlfriend playing.
Honestly while I wouldn’t be to bothered by Blizzard changing things for these groups, ie women, gays, disabled, etc, we have to realize that as long as the majority group playing this GAME is White Males between 15 and 30, then the game shouldn’t change much.
Should women become a larger component, or gays, or latinos or whatever, then blizzard will change the game to appeal to that demographic more.
In conclusion, ladies if you want the game to change, get more women to play, so that the demographic changes.
August 31, 2010 at 8:28 pm
“Wow is one of the few games that I play that I would have no problem with my mom or my sister or my girlfriend playing.”
There is so much inherent sexism in this statement I honestly don’t know how to begin. You shouldn’t have a problem with them playing *any* game, they should have full control on whether their *delicate sensibilities* can handle it. You not having a problem with it in relation to a woman in your life, doesn’t mean a woman shouldn’t have a problem with something in game. The two are not congruent. It’s a staple of a male dominated society to think it’s your right or responsibility to “protect” us from shit.
The rest of your post is utter privilege.. a word I don’t like throwing around but sadly have seen more of reading this post than in the last several weeks of online reading. Someone above quote 35% of the WoW population is female. Even by your ridiculous standards (get more represented as a player base and you then gain the right to an opinion!), that’s plenty to warrant consideration and representation.
August 31, 2010 at 11:42 am
Well.. i wrote a long and incendiary comment but decided to delete it as this topic needs no more fuel it seems.
Just a quick question though… Where are my Burqa clad NPCs? Islam does comprise of 19- 21% of the worlds population after all. Surely for the sake of nearly a quarter of the worlds population we should include some. Or maybe we should just stepback, grow up and learn to distinguish between a game and real life.
Can I haz my escapism back now?
September 3, 2010 at 6:25 pm
WoW is a FANTASY MMO. It is NOT based on reality. As far as I can tell, things such as magic, orcs, trolls, and griffins do not exist.
Why then should homosexuality, or feminist “equality” be included in the game? Why should a clearly non-reality game mirror reality? And in particular, Western reality?
Women still get stoned to death in Saudi Arabia for various non-crimes. Should that be included in a new, more realistic WoW? Or just the Western traditions that make the sexes more “equal”.
Wives get beaten every day by their male partners. Do we include this?
Should a majority of poor and homeless NPCs be uneducated women and children?
Should almost half of the NPCs in the game be divorced and paying child support? Should we throw a judicial system into the game, where we can watch NPC families torn apart by divorce?
This isn’t a REALITY MMO. It is a FANTASY MMO. Female heroes in this game can do everything a male character can do. They don’t lose key stats like strength (for a warrior) or intelligence (for a mage) even though in real life, there are real differences between men and women (and the intelligence thing is just there to make irrationally emotional feminists rage.)
But that isn’t the point. The point is that when the gauntlet gets thrown down, some people will defend their point of view because they know it is right, and other people will defend their point of view because they’ve been trained to. It is clear that the puppets in this argument are the people who believe that because equality in the real world is good, it must be good for a FANTASY MMO.
Puppets don’t have free will, and are manipulated. The puppets in this case believe that a FANTASY MMO should be as closely tied to their own version of reality as possible, even though by definition one is the exact opposite of the other. This misunderstanding is in fact what shines a light on the puppets and their terrible argument. This game has exactly 0 relevance to the outside world.
As myself and others have asked, where would the line be drawn? Should some NPCs be atheists? Should we start introducing STDs into the NPC population and storyline? What about murder? Should all kings be deposed and Azeroth made into a lawful Republic?
The whole scenario is ridiculous if you can see past your own biases. A FANTASY MMO specifically leaves out modern day reality, and focuses on a mythical past. Trying to inject present day morals and policies into it would only kill the game. It wouldn’t stop with just feminist ideas of equality. It would cascade until the whole game is buried under a load of PC bullshit. Is that the FANTASY MMO you want to play?
September 4, 2010 at 6:13 pm
[…] September 4, 2010 by Oestrus Recently, Pewter realized that while her feminism post may have opened the floodgates for numerous other posts on the topic, such as the ones found at MoarHPS and the Bossy Pally, it also opened the floodgates for another matter at hand to be hotly debated – the presence of male privelege in the game or the lack thereof. Obviously seeing an opportunity to discuss things from the male perspective, Pewter brought up the subject with a new post, in a novel way that was a bit different than her previous one. Instead of writing an actual post and then letting people comment on it afterwards, she simply threw the topic out there and let the comments provide the discussion. She was determined to keep the thread on topic and would interject at points where she wanted to add something to the discussion. As expected, it turned into another success and inspired similiarly themed posts from the guys at Righteous Orbs (or as I lovingly refer to them as Self-Righteous Orbs) and a new blogger I just became acquainted with known as the Noisy Rogue. […]
May 21, 2016 at 12:37 am
[…] Noisy Rogue. Back in 2010 I had my first brush with SJWs and it set off a shit storm. First here. Then here. And here are all of my posts under the SJW […]